High cut/low cut how is this supposed to work on both the Cabinet section and the Output section?

1st Official Post
    The Profiler Model referred to in this thread is ...
    ☑️ Profiler Head/Rack

    I picked up a Kone recently (really liking it so far) and started experimenting with the Output section settings on my powered toaster, which have been very useful at fine tuning my sounds. However I discovered the same set of hi/low cut settings in the both the Output and Cabinet sections - this is a bit confusing to me. Both sets of controls seem to be active, but I’d expect that they would serve the same purpose (since shaping EQ on the Cabinet is effectively also shaping EQ on the Output. For example, if I set the high cut at 5700K on the Cabinet, what is the purpose of having a higher/lower setting on the Output section?

    Can someone pls explain how are these settings are supposed to work together?

    I did check the manual, and sadly could not find anything on this topic.

    Thanks in advance for any help you can send my way!

    • Official Post

    The Output Section is global and not part of the Rig specific settings. Low and High Cut in the Output Section are global and in cabinet module are Rig-specific.

    If you want to cut across all sounds, Output Section is convenient.

    I have some sounds for acoustic guitar, where I want no High Cut. So I do this Rig by Rig in the cabinet module.

    Quote from Burkhard

    The Output Section is global and not part of the Rig specific settings. Low and High Cut in the Output Section are global and in cabinet module are Rig-specific.

    If you want to cut across all sounds, Output Section is convenient.

    I have some sounds for acoustic guitar, where I want no High Cut. So I do this Rig by Rig in the cabinet module.

    Could you clarify whether both sections work at the same time or if changes to the Cabinet Mode override the Output Section settings in a similar way to Pure Cabinet or Default Speaker Imprint V Rig Specific Imprint?

    Quote from Wheresthedug

    Could you clarify whether both sections work at the same time or if changes to the Cabinet Mode override the Output Section settings in a similar way to Pure Cabinet or Default Speaker Imprint V Rig Specific Imprint?

    IMO, it doesn't act the same way as imprint mode in which an imprint take place of another one but i asssume it's cumulative and take the lower setting for a highcut and the higher one for a lowcut. I imagine you can have in output section a setting at 65Hz-15000Hz to encompass all your rigs and a setting at 90Hz-8500Hz in cab's block for a particular speaker ?!

    Thanks all for the feedback, appreciate it!

    Sadly, I'm still a little confused ;) - if the hi and low cut controls are simultaneously active in the Cabinet and Output sections, what happens if they conflict with one another (e.g., Cab has high cut set to 10K, and Output has high cut set to 7K?) - does one override the other? If so, what is the intended precedence?

    Thanks again,

    Dango

    Low/high cut is a filtrer. If you have 2/3 filter per rig, there's no problem, the first one set at 10KHz will get rid of higher frequencies, the second one can be set at 7KHz to get rid of frequencies between 7KHz and 10KHz...

    Normaly, you'll set the opposite way with a larger range on the output block and a more short range in the cab block to have a specific setting for a particular rig/speaker....

    Quote from cmbrowns

    They're also in the Studio EQ. Hard to say why they've ended up in more than one place, but do they really conflict? One cuts at set frequency, another cuts a bit lower, etc.

    They were added to the Cabinet block recently after prolonged requests by some users who didn’t want to have to use an FX slot for a studio EQ but also wanted control on a rig by rig basis as they found the global setting wasn’t flexible enough for their needs.

    Quote from Wheresthedug

    They were added to the Cabinet block recently after prolonged requests by some users who didn’t want to have to use an FX slot for a studio EQ but also wanted control on a rig by rig basis as they found the global setting wasn’t flexible enough for their needs.

    Thanks, great to have additional context. So what would happen, for example, if the Output section has Hi Cut set at 7500hz and the cabinet section says it’s 10000hz - does the Cab setting at 7500hz fully override the setting in the Output section?

    Thanks!

    Dango.

    Just now chiming in on this, but think I can contribute.

    All of those EQs work in series, so whichever one has the more constrained settings will "override" the other(s).

    For example, I set the Output Section to a Hi Cut of 8khz and Low Cut at 80hz. I would set it tighter, but it affects everything before it, including reverbs and delays.

    I then set the Hi/Low in the Cabinet Section for what I want per rig and that is generally Low Cut at 90-110hz and High Cut anywhere from 2.5-4khz.

    Hope that helps clarify.

    Be Thankful.

    Edited once, last by kevinduren (April 26, 2024 at 11:02 PM).

    My understanding is the Kemper filters work in series as mentioned. There is no 'overiding' as they all are working at the same time. I hate to say it, but you ulimately have to use your ears. How filters interact is mathematically challenging for most and nearly impossible to describe with words. It is quite involved if you want a full understanding. It may be helpful to assume the lowest hi cut frequency will be the most dominant in limiting the high range. Similarly, the highest low cut frequency will be the most dominant in limiting the low range. Beyond that there is a complex set of interactions regarding magnitude, phase and group delay among others.

    I think an easy way to look at this is, if you want to apply eq filters to a specific rig, use the cab block filters and store them within the rig. Leave your output wide open. Repeat for each rig as needed.

    Then when you get to a gig, if the venue is particularly bright or boomy, you can use the output section filters to eq all your entire output globally for the room. And if you are running to a board, leave your output filters wide open and let the FOH engineer apply the filters on the board for the crowd mix. So essentially, the output filters can be considered a room eq bandaid to use when needed based on venue.

    And remember that using both is not additive, only subtractive, so if you shelve everything from 7k up on the cab and then shelve off 8k and up on the output, you're still only passing up to 7k. Lowest number wins. Visa versa, if you shelve 8k on the cab and 7k on the output, you're still only passing 7k.

    Quote from dfdfan

    ...

    And remember that using both is not additive, only subtractive, so if you shelve everything from 7k up on the cab and then shelve off 8k and up on the output, you're still only passing up to 7k. Lowest number wins. Visa versa, if you shelve 8k on the cab and 7k on the output, you're still only passing 7k.

    Yes in your example 7k is the lowest corner frequency. The simple view is what you describe, but there is a complex set of interactions above 7K. It is not as if the 8k shelf wasn't there. In fact, linear, time invariant filters are additive in the strict sense of the word. So, the rolloff is steeper and the phase and group delay is more complex.

    Most (not all though, Nova comes to mind) eq plugins you are used to in your DAW apply all their bands in series. So you are probably more used to this situation than you think. They all affect the signal. Applying two 6db per octave filters in series is like having one 12db per octave. Given that they are set at the same cutoff frequency.

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    Quote from lbieber

    Yes in your example 7k is the lowest corner frequency. The simple view is what you describe, but there is a complex set of interactions above 7K. It is not as if the 8k shelf wasn't there. In fact, linear, time invariant filters are additive in the strict sense of the word. So, the rolloff is steeper and the phase and group delay is more complex.

    Yeah but the question is, is that really relevant in a performance setting? I would posit that there's no need for that kind of depth. Studio maybe, but there you'd be better served by outboards anyway. I'm all about the K.I.S.S. method as I've found that the best approach is to keep it simple. Use the cab filters to lock in the profile and the output filters for fluidity in the situations that change day to day. Just my preference though.