Are we getting other updates ?

Quote from Ruefus

There is a misconception here.

The reality is that no matter what you do - what you hear on stage is *never, ever* what the audience hears. You can't tune the FOH sound using your monitor and get good results in the room. Even if you're getting the same signal as the main outs. Why? Because they don't sound the same.

FOH speakers are never the same as what you monitor with. Even if its the house system. The location in the room, proximity to the speaker.......they sound similar but never exact.

The Kone provides you with the amp-in-the-room sound.

The Kone and imprints remove the microphone from the equation. That is a different sound - and what anyone using a traditional tube/valve amp hears on stage. It is a more immediate and (at least to me) inspiring sound. Every Cab or IR has some of its own inherent 'room' sound. You can hear it with Mod/Delay/Verb disabled. Its subtle, but also significant. You're hearing the amp and speaker - through a mic (or mics).

This is not what the amp and speaker sound like on their own. To me, this is a key advantage over other digital amps. Others claim to accomplish the same thing....but with very mixed results. The Kone and imprints aren't perfect. But they're *really, really* good and give you the benefit of picking a multitude of speaker types on a per-rig basis if you choose.

I get your point - but if I make a specific choice to have the tone imprint of a Jensen in the monitor, you would think that the Kemper would be attempting to push that same speaker selection to the house mains as well.

Look at it this way - If I play a venue with my Deluxe Reverb w/Jensen mic'd up, I expect the house system to sound like my Deluxe Reverb/jensen with a mic in front of it - not a Deluxe Reverb going thru a 4x12 with a mic in front of it - that's all I'm trying to say. If I'm using a Kone Imprint, you would think the same imprints would be available and connected to the Cab Sim section which goes to the house. As is, you may have a radically different tone going to the house... and you may not even know it, since your reference point is the monitor out. I ran into this problem early on when I first started using Kemper; once I became aware of it, I was able to make appropriate adjustments, but it was very confusing at first, and I wouldn't be surprised if others are confused by this as well. But all good, and different strokes for different folks... if it's working for you, that's great, and we are all team Kemper here Have a great weekend!

Quote from dango123

I get your point - but if I make a specific choice to have the tone imprint of a Jensen in the monitor, you would think that the Kemper would be attempting to push that same speaker selection to the house mains as well.

Look at it this way - If I play a venue with my Deluxe Reverb w/Jensen mic'd up, I expect the house system to sound like my Deluxe Reverb/jensen with a mic in front of it - not a Deluxe Reverb going thru a 4x12 with a mic in front of it - that's all I'm trying to say. If I'm using a Kone Imprint, you would think the same imprints would be available and connected to the Cab Sim section which goes to the house. As is, you may have a radically different tone going to the house... and you may not even know it, since your reference point is the monitor out. I ran into this problem early on when I first started using Kemper; once I became aware of it, I was able to make appropriate adjustments, but it was very confusing at first, and I wouldn't be surprised if others are confused by this as well. But all good, and different strokes for different folks... if it's working for you, that's great, and we are all team Kemper here Have a great weekend!

If you want the Kone to sound like FOH you simply run it in full range mode instead of imprint mode. The ability to have an imprint was a response to user requests and give another option but users can still monitor a sound similar to FOH if they want. That’s a win/win rather than a flaw.

Quote from Wheresthedug

If you want the Kone to sound like FOH you simply run it in full range mode instead of imprint mode. The ability to have an imprint was a response to user requests and give another option but users can still monitor a sound similar to FOH if they want. That’s a win/win rather than a flaw.

^ This

(Makin’ my life easy!!!🤣)

The Kone thing ya'll mentioned. Here's an idea. I don't use a Kone so perhaps I'm off a bit. There's like 16 kone types or whatever right? Perhaps someone could start a thread where they list factory cabs or even commercial ones they have found that get pretty close to the sound of the kone. Perhaps ones they've tried in multiple PA systems?

Quote from Grooguit

The Kone thing ya'll mentioned. Here's an idea. I don't use a Kone so perhaps I'm off a bit. There's like 16 kone types or whatever right? Perhaps someone could start a thread where they list factory cabs or even commercial ones they have found that get pretty close to the sound of the kone. Perhaps ones they've tried in multiple PA systems?

That's not how it works.

The Kone imprints are designed to sound like the speaker WITHOUT a microphone. Whereas the sound going to FOH is intended to be a speaker WITH a microphone. They are supposed to sound different. If you want them to sound the same you just use Full Range mode.

Quote from Ruefus

^ This

(Makin’ my life easy!!!🤣

Good discussion, and appreciate the feedback. I think it's great that Kemper is introducing these cool new features in response to suggestions from the user community.

I think I'm coming at this from a different angle than you guys are. I start with the monitored sounds, to get a tone I like, and then I want that moved to the mains/FOH system. So if you want to use the Kone imprints, that's part of the sound I'm trying to craft to begin with. To me, it would be logical that this tone would then be available to the house mix (with mic sim added of course) - so if I put together a Deluxe Reverb with Jensen imprint (or celestion green or one of the other 16 options) at the monitoring level, I should be able to get that combination (i.e, the "in the room" sound but with a mic on it) going to the house. Of course the house sound will not be exactly like the "in the room" sound going to the monitor- that's a given, and part of any live/PA situation - but I'd still expect the PA to be a mic'd representation of the amp that is sitting in front of me on stage.

so I don't want the "Kone to sound like FOH"... I want the FOH to sound like the Kone... with a mic in front of it

At the moment (unless I'm missing something, which is certainly possible), the 16 imprint tones are not available to the cab simulation section that goes to the house - they are independent areas of the profile. So I can come up with a great tone at the monitoring level (with say the EVM12L), but not find that exact option within the Cab settings that go to the house. Hopefully this makes sense - but if not, all good - not looking to create controversy with these thoughts - if there's disagreement on this point, all good, we can leave it here

Peace out,

Dango

Well Dango, looks like you want the KPA to work the opposite way around as it is supposed to be (tweak your tones for FOH and then find an Imprint that work for you on stage). I understand why. I believe the best would be if the KPA could automatically generate imprints from the profiles.

To find a Kemper cab you can search in Rig Manager for EVM12L. There are quite a few rigs that come up as using this speaker. You can save the cabinet from any of those to try in your rigs while still using the EVM12L imprint for your monitor. Or you could look around for and IR based on that speaker that you could then import as a cabinet.

Beyond that, it's pretty much trial and error to find one that you like the sound of through FOH.

Quote from dango123

At the moment (unless I'm missing something, which is certainly possible), the 16 imprint tones are not available to the cab.

The amp in the room sound is what’s missing.

You cannot get that without the imprints mated to the Kone speaker.

The problem is that the Kemper can separate the amp from the cab when Profiling. What it can’t do is remove the mic from the Cab equation.

Quote from Kellerblues

Well Dango, looks like you want the KPA to work the opposite way around as it is supposed to be (tweak your tones for FOH and then find an Imprint that work for you on stage). I understand why. I believe the best would be if the KPA could automatically generate imprints from the profiles.

that’s exactly what I mean, thx! If you are using Kemper as a guitar amp primarily, you are using the monitor section, not the FOH mains mix. So you would tweak the monitor mix first, and then want that replicated in the house mix. Also agree that the imprints should be tied to the cab component if the profiles in some way. good stuff!

Quote from cmbrowns

To find a Kemper cab you can search in Rig Manager for EVM12L. There are quite a few rigs that come up as using this speaker. You can save the cabinet from any of those to try in your rigs while still using the EVM12L imprint for your monitor. Or you could look around for and IR based on that speaker that you could then import as a cabinet.

Beyond that, it's pretty much trial and error to find one that you like the sound of through FOH.

sure, you can do that in rig mgr… but if I already picked the EVM imprint, it would be helpful if the profiler had an option to coordinate that with the cab profile automatically so I don’t have to do double the work. All good.

Quote from Ruefus

The amp in the room sound is what’s missing.

You cannot get that without the imprints mated to the Kone speaker.

The problem is that the Kemper can separate the amp from the cab when Profiling. What it can’t do is remove the mic from the Cab equation.

Thanks but that’s not the issue I’m raising - if you use imprints for the in the room effect, that’s great. But once you’ve made that choice, the speaker selection should also be available as an automatic option in the Cab section IMO.

Btw, I rarely use the imprints, and think the Kemper with cab monitor off sound like an authentic amp in the room through a regular guitar cab. Many of the demo-style videos I’ve seen online testing this feature would seem to agree with this perspective. But again, all good

Even if Kemper were to include cab files for each imprint speaker it wouldn't work. As Ruefus said, maybe you'd like whatever mic and placement options they used, but surely just as many others would say the cabs weren't even close to what they'd expect they should sound like. If they provided multiple cabs for each imprint, you'd still have the trial and error to pick one, and still you may not find any you'd think were a good match.

So I'd be a bit surprised if Kemper added cabinets specific to imprints, but then who knows what they might have planned?

For me, I'd pick rigs that I think sound good for FOH, then worry about tweaking a monitor mix for myself from that point.

Quote from cmbrowns

For me, I'd pick rigs that I think sound good for FOH, then worry about tweaking a monitor mix for myself from that point.

The thing is, someone (like me) using the Kemper primarily as a guitar amp (e.g., powered toaster) doesn't know what the FOH sounds like because we are not listening thru a PA or console - all we hear are the sounds going to the guitar cab/speaker via the powered monitor out.

So when I pick sounds, it's not because they sound good for FOH, it's because they sound good thru the guitar cab sitting in front of me. I only hear the FOH speaker when I'm at the gig, with a PA to play thru - and then it's very hard to quickly tweak profiles to sound good thru the house (although that's basically what I've done over the last 3 years of gigging with Kemper, and I'm at the point where it sounds pretty darn good thru the house AND the monitor mix). Hopefully this clarifies where i'm coming from on this point.

I recently went to a recording session and used some of my patches that everyone really dug thru the 1x12 cab in the room... but those sounds didn't work nearly as well when I went direct to the board via XLR. That's the problem I'd like to solve. Having the imprints on the monitor out further complicates this situation, since it takes me further away from what is actually going to the XLR outs.

Perhaps the issue I'm describing is unique to me, but I'd be surprised if it is. Any one else experiencing this?

Thanks!

Quote from dango123

Perhaps the issue I'm describing is unique to me, but I'd be surprised if it is. Any one else experiencing this?

Thanks!

I think you are correct. It is unique to you.

The whole Kemper workflow is based around getting a finished FOH or Recorded sound from the main outs. Once you are happy with this, you are free to adjust your monitor sound any way you wish. Starting from the monitor out is completely backward to front. Start with the sound you want the audience to hear then sort you monitors to suit your own needs.

Quote from dango123

The thing is, someone (like me) using the Kemper primarily as a guitar amp (e.g., powered toaster) doesn't know what the FOH sounds like because we are not listening thru a PA or console - all we hear are the sounds going to the guitar cab/speaker via the powered monitor out.

This is why you might want to pick your profiles using some kind of FRFR speaker, and at a show like volume. That's what would give you (as close as possible) the sound you are sending to FOH. Beyond that, it's out of your hands anyway. You at least know what you're sending to the board.

Then you can handle your monitoring however it works for you. Some may want the same as FOH, some might prefer guitar cabs, some in-ear. Whatever inspires you to play best.

Quote from Grooguit

... and prioritized active guitar players over feature junkies that enjoy pontificating over possibilities over playing. And the KPA has been, in my opinion, the best thing on the market at any point in time over its life.

I feel like this position assumes that everyone that owns a Kemper, uses it as a live performance tool, and has a stable of microphones and amps to pick from when it's time to do studio work. For me, that's not true. I only have the Kemper and it's my multi purpose unit. From my point of view, I have a great deal of respect for the way Fractal tries to ever more emulate the little irregularities and interactions that aren't linear or static.

There's another assumption I also feels has to be made to support your point of view, which is that you see everything before your eyes. But reality is, we don't see the electron clouds swirling around the core of the atom, but you can surely feel it if you stick a fork in an outlet. It seems to be my experience that there are elements of the timbre of a sound that result in physiological responses which you can feel much more than you can hear them. So imo, there is something to be said for the continuous strive for a more realistic representation of guitar amps.

You make other good points about what makes the Kemper successful though, I just wanted to point out why some of us might care more about this stuff than others. It's not just cause we're anal about pointless and meaningless things.

Quote from JEverly

What does everyone think needs to be in this unit? I can tell you from being in both the Kemper and Fractal ecosystems, the Kemper had far less issues than the Fractal and it just works. They are on version 3 of the firmware for the FM9 and there are still things that don't work like they are supposed to. They are still trying to get things from the Axe III ported and working for the FM9.

To be fair, this also happened to some extent when Kemper decided to release new hardware. There were a few firmware updates that only related to the Stage. The way I remember it, the Stage wasn't an immediate hit upon launch. They were quick to bring it up to par though, and by now it's doing better. Maybe my memory's off.

Quote from Wheresthedug

I think you are correct. It is unique to you.

The whole Kemper workflow is based around getting a finished FOH or Recorded sound from the main outs. Once you are happy with this, you are free to adjust your monitor sound any way you wish. Starting from the monitor out is completely backward to front. Start with the sound you want the audience to hear then sort you monitors to suit your own needs.

Perhaps, but I find it hard to believe that my use case is so unique. Seems that the powered toaster/rack was created to allow people to use Kemper as a guitar amp, into a guitar cab. That is how I (and several friends/collaborators) use it 95% of the time. I would suspect that many people don't have a PA or studio set up at home to demo sounds from the audience/engineer's perspective. I create sounds that sound good thru the guitar cab; I just want a more reliable way to get those tones back into the XLR outs.

But as i've said... all good! Thanks!

Quote from dango123

I recently went to a recording session and used some of my patches that everyone really dug thru the 1x12 cab in the room... but those sounds didn't work nearly as well when I went direct to the board via XLR. That's the problem I'd like to solve. Having the imprints on the monitor out further complicates this situation, since it takes me further away from what is actually going to the XLR outs.

Make an IR, or find an IR of the cab you are using and convert it to a Kemper cabinet, then use that with the profiles you are sending to FOH. And also like someone mentioned before, get an FRFR speaker. Set up the tone in the amp, then replicate the way it sounds on the FRFR speaker afterwards. Or vice versa. If this is a livelihood, or a main hobby of yours, the price of a usable FRFR speaker just for output matching should be tolerable.

I don't think your use case is so unique. Just the fact you don't know what you're sending off is

Edit: Couple of Alto's can double as a decent TV/music playback system

Edit #2: didnt realize you owned a Kabinet when I wrote this post originally.

Quote from dango123

Perhaps, but I find it hard to believe that my use case is so unique. Seems that the powered toaster/rack was created to allow people to use Kemper as a guitar amp, into a guitar cab. That is how I (and several friends/collaborators) use it 95% of the time. I would suspect that many people don't have a PA or studio set up at home to demo sounds from the audience/engineer's perspective. I create sounds that sound good thru the guitar cab; I just want a more reliable way to get those tones back into the XLR outs.

But as i've said... all good! Thanks!

I still think you are missing the point.

In the bad old days when we all had valve amps and speakers, we set up a sound we loved the we were at the mercy of a sound guy sticking a mic in front of it and EQing to fit in the band mix. The sound that came out the PA often bore no resemblance to the sound we had on stage and we had no way of knowing or controlling this. With the KPA we can choose a sound that sounds great for FOH and know what we are sending to the desk. The we can create a sound that we are happy without stage without affecting this. Starting with the onstage monitor sound and working from there is a totally backwards workflow. The fact that we had no option on the past doesn’t mean we should continue to use it now that we have better options.

If you want to know that FOH and on stage Monitor are the same the only way to do it it to use Full Range monitors. Imprints were created for a totally different purpose - specifically to make the monitor and FOH sound different (like the old days). Trying to use imprint to create a FOH sound is like trying to make a horse into an aeroplane. They are both great at their own thing but they are never going to replace each other.