Do the definition control!

1st Official Post
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    The Profiler Model referred to in this thread is ...
    ☑️ Profiler Head/Rack

    I know there have been countless posts from profilers and others telling us before EQ etc. to try the definition control. At first, I didn't get a handle on exactly what it was doing as it isn't just some dumb treble & bass control you can easily hear the sweep of. It's doing something subtle and magical. After years of messing with it, I find I don't look at it as an EQ but as a "feel" control. If anybody would say to me a profile feels too "stiff" or "digital" I'd say try turning the Def down to like 7.

    I've noticed that many paid profiles come with the definitions way up and they can turn you off that way. Having the def down to like, 7 can make a Marshall feel more like a Marshall really does. With the Def on 10, it sounds cool. sharp and in front but IMO not as "real".

    I have read this is like a feedback circuit control that can make the feel go from vintage circuit to modern but I've always wanted to know exactly what definition does. It's almost like it messes with the harmonics and high settings sound like adding a Sonic Maximizer to the sound. (remember those?)

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    Defintion ist just a brightness control.

    if profiles sound dull like many do but have definition already set to 10, just move on, EQ and treble/presence will not make it sound better in a natural way.

    what I don't get is when I make Profiles and refine the sound and set everything to really make it sound 99% close to the original and then save the profile, it will set definition to 10 and make it super bright when I then select it in browse mode. I have to back it up quite a lot but cannnot compare it directly to the original sound anymore... and that sucks

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    Quote from Ruefus

    In my experience - I'm positive this is incorrect. Brightness is part of it, sure. But there's more going on.

    Totally agree. It does something especially to the initial picked attack of the sound (I’m thinking about profiles of distorted amps, from crunch to high gain). If you set the Definition to zero, no amount of boosting high frequencies with EQ would do the same thing as boosting the Definition. You could make the sound brighter with EQ, but it wouldn’t be the same as increasing the Definition.

    I don’t think we can know exactly what it does and how, those are secrets that Kemper will probably not share, understandably, because it’s all part of exactly how the Kemper works its magic.

    But I use Definition all the time in tweaking my own profiles. It’s really useful.

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    I almost forgot I brought up the question before of exactly what it does and we had a discussion on it. A few had believed it has to do with harmonics of the signal. I kind of agree especially with my observation that high settings make it sound like boosting a harmonic exciter.

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    Quote from Dynochrome

    I almost forgot I brought up the question before of exactly what it does and we had a discussion on it. A few had believed it has to do with harmonics of the signal. I kind of agree especially with my observation that high settings make it sound like boosting a harmonic exciter.

    As you know, Kinum has remained mum on the topic. Whatever it does, it's certainly unique.

    One of the reasons other digital solutions haven't appealed to me is down to the limited tuning capabilities. The Quad Cortex is the most recent example. I picked a capture that was close (same as I would with a KPA), and went looking for something beyond B, M,T and Presence.

    If it's there, I couldn't find it. The sound wasn't bad, but not being able to fiddle with that last 1 percentage point was surprisingly annoying.

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    I think it's something about which frequency spectrum of the input signal (at some point in the "circuit") is driving the distortion. This is my interpretation based on the somewhat vague description in the manual. I think of it in terms of how much the low frequencies are let through to the distortion function. Even if this is a somewhat correct guess, I'm sure it is massively simplified :)

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    Quote from Michael_dk

    I think it's something about which frequency spectrum of the input signal (at some point in the "circuit") is driving the distortion. This is my interpretation based on the somewhat vague description in the manual. I think of it in terms of how much the low frequencies are let through to the distortion function. Even if this is a somewhat correct guess, I'm sure it is massively simplified :)

    I think that’s part of it, for sure. To some degree I can produce a similar effect to Definition boosting by placing the BMTP “pre”, i.e. before the distortion, and boosting the treble and presence. But I think there’s something else as well, the pick attack is emphasised by Definition too.

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    Quote from Michael_dk

    I think it's something about which frequency spectrum of the input signal (at some point in the "circuit") is driving the distortion. This is my interpretation based on the somewhat vague description in the manual. I think of it in terms of how much the low frequencies are let through to the distortion function. Even if this is a somewhat correct guess, I'm sure it is massively simplified :)

    My bet would be that you are very close, it isn't just Bass/Treble, something else is definitely going on that affects the "feel". It's not in your face, because it's subtle, but does something almost indescribable. Whatever it does, I'm glad to have it because now that I have it, it's indispensable for adjusting the feel for me.

    Edited once, last by Dynochrome (September 24, 2024 at 1:58 AM).

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    Quote from BadBadger

    I think that’s part of it, for sure. To some degree I can produce a similar effect to Definition boosting by placing the BMTP “pre”, i.e. before the distortion, and boosting the treble and presence. But I think there’s something else as well, the pick attack is emphasized by Definition too.

    Quote from Ruefus

    One of the reasons other digital solutions haven't appealed to me is down to the limited tuning capabilities

    I haven't messed with one but I would have guessed a "newer" unit would have vast adjustment abilities. The Kemper was really before it's time.

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    I must admit, I was never satisfied with my clean tone, being to "sterile" and with lots of attack ...

    Last week I tried dill's free liquid marshall clean tone from the rig manager ans bamn ... there was this soft round creamy tone !

    I looked in the amps etting and the definition control was on 2 ... never had it below 6-7 I guess

    This really opened my mind ...

    Raf

    Kemper stage with 2 mission pedals (in a Thon line 6 FBV case) and a Zilla 212 (K-100/V30) , SD powerstage 700 poweramp

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    Quote from Roeffel

    I looked in the amps setting and the definition control was on 2 ... never had it below 6-7 I guess

    I recall M.Britt saying when he makes a profile, he knows it has been done right when the definition lands around 5. So a setting of 2 on a profile may just mean there were way too much lows/highs in the profile when it was made. Or when the profile was refined. but very interesting to hear it that low and sounding good. May be something to it.

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    The more gain you have, the less bass you can have. Super high gain without removing the bass is called a FUZZ pedal.

    The low freqs become a square wave and all of the high freqs disappear.

    To me the DEF must be a combo high pass filter and some other slight adjustment.

    When making my high gain VST stuff, the low cut (High pass) can easily be set around 150-300 Hz. Which then goes into a 700-1100 HZ band pass. So there are almost no lows hitting the clipping stages at all.

    The DEF also helps tune the profile to the pickups used. If it is made with single coils your humbucker guitar will need to increase the DEF to compensate. And vice versa.

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    Quote from Roeffel

    I must admit, I was never satisfied with my clean tone, being to "sterile" and with lots of attack ...

    Last week I tried dill's free liquid marshall clean tone from the rig manager ans bamn ... there was this soft round creamy tone !

    I looked in the amps etting and the definition control was on 2 ... never had it below 6-7 I guess

    This really opened my mind ...

    Raf

    Many people will say Michael Britt's profiles work the best live and I believe a big part of that is that he doesn't ship everything with the definition almost dimed like many do. If you make you own profiles it's very unusual for it to come out on their own that way. I believe some profilers do that tweeking them afterwards sometimes detrimentally. As I said before, I think it is a powerful "feel" control that seems to cushion the tone a bit making it less "sterile" and more natural.

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    Quote from Dynochrome

    Many people will say Michael Britt's profiles work the best live and I believe a big part of that is that he doesn't ship everything with the definition almost dimed like many do. If you make you own profiles it's very unusual for it to come out on their own that way. I believe some profilers do that tweeking them afterwards sometimes detrimentally. As I said before, I think it is a powerful "feel" control that seems to cushion the tone a bit making it less "sterile" and more natural.

    I tend to ignore Profiles with the Definition control set to extreme values in either direction. That's not a hard and fast rule, though.

    It all depends on how versatile (or adjustable) the sound needs to be.

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    Quote from Ruefus

    I tend to ignore Profiles with the Definition control set to extreme values in either direction. That's not a hard and fast rule, though.

    I just find it to be "unnatural" Even if you take an amp miked center cone with gain and treble cranked, chances are it won't come out with definition of 10. Not for me anyway. Adding that after can make profiles artificial sounding, but some must like it that way I guess. I've never been paid for a profile, but My 4104 on RE is Pretty good I think!

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    • Official Post
    Quote from Dynochrome

    I just find it to be "unnatural" Even if you take an amp miked center cone with gain and treble cranked, chances are it won't come out with definition of 10.

    there's a certain breed of 'boutique' amps that will indeed have such a high Definition setting when profiled - also modern metal amps

    "Vintage amps distort the lower harmonics in the guitar signal which gives them their bluesy sound. These amps were originally designed to deliver a clean sound, so if you want a creamy distortion, these amps need to be driven by a typical transistor-based device like a treble booster. Modern tube amps use a different approach, in which the higher overtones of the guitar strings are the driving force for the distorted sound. The expensive boutique amps take this concept one step further, by providing an extreme level of top-end frequencies and a large dynamic range. The distortion has a sparkling quality to it and preserves every nuance of the strings and pickups."