Kemper: better with frfr or through power amp and speaker

    Quote from aamefford

    It seems that several of us new(er) Kemper owners are pretty curious about the KEMPER Kabinet as compared to the Fender FR10 or FR12. Is one "better?"

    Probably not. Just different. Personal taste will determine what is best suited for any given player.

    Quote from aamefford

    Are the speaker imprints actually good?

    Yes. Very. However, when I run my Kabinet I generally stick to full range mode anyway.

    Quote from aamefford

    Do the speaker imprints work with the FR10 / FR12? Are they accurate with the Fender FR speakers?

    No. To work and be accurate they need the speaker itself to have a specific frequency response as a baseline to work from. The Kone and Fender are totally different speakers. Applying the Kemper DSP to another speaker will not result in the correct baseline so the imprints will work but will definitely not be accurate. Having said that, some people have found that they like the “inaccurate” sound of imprints with a “wrong” speaker. Its all personal taste again. If it sounds good to you, it is good.

    Quote from aamefford

    It seems that several of us new(er) Kemper owners are pretty curious about the KEMPER Kabinet as compared to the Fender FR10 or FR12. Is one "better?" Are the speaker imprints actually good? Do the speaker imprints work with the FR10 / FR12? Are they accurate with the Fender FR speakers? I am interested in buying one of the two at some point. I don't have the disposable income to buy and try both, so just looking for feedback, on the off chance someone has direct experience with both? thanks all.

    i was the same as you having hard time to decide between the kab and the fr-12. finally decided to pull the trigger yesterday on the fr-12 and should get it in a few days,from my own little research on different online groups, i read a lot more positive reaction on the fr-12 compare to the kab. im moving from a yamaha dbr10, looking for more of that "amp in a room" sound like.

    will report after i'll get it

    Quote from hendrix1406

    i was the same as you having hard time to decide between the kab and the fr-12. finally decided to pull the trigger yesterday on the fr-12 and should get it in a few days,from my own little research on different online groups, i read a lot more positive reaction on the fr-12 compare to the kab. im moving from a yamaha dbr10, looking for more of that "amp in a room" sound like.

    will report after i'll get it

    You won't be disappointed, trust me :thumbup:

    If something is too complicated, then you need to learn it better

    Thanks all. I’ve read several folks say they use their kabinets in FR mode rather than the speaker imprints. This kind of makes sense, it *should* be the best route to reproduce the rig as profiled. The imprints seem like they might be kinda like using a guitar cab fitted with a particular speaker, but with more variety of speakers. I guess I’m trying to figure out if the speaker imprints are useful, or do they boil down to an interesting gimmick?

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    came across with this yesterday and i got a good answer if its good enough for high gain profiles.

    Edited 2 times, last by hendrix1406 (January 8, 2024 at 1:03 PM).

    Quote from aamefford

    Thanks all. I’ve read several folks say they use their kabinets in FR mode rather than the speaker imprints. This kind of makes sense, it *should* be the best route to reproduce the rig as profiled. The imprints seem like they might be kinda like using a guitar cab fitted with a particular speaker, but with more variety of speakers. I guess I’m trying to figure out if the speaker imprints are useful, or do they boil down to an interesting gimmick?

    It depends.

    Kemper was originally designed to capture and reproduce a mic'ed tube amp with a cab. The idea being that this is what the audience hears through the PA.

    The hole in this logic was that this sound isn't what the guitar player was hearing on stage (amp in the room). As a result, Kemper (and others) made solutions that would provide the guitar player with the "amp in the room" sound on-stage while delivering a different FOH result (that sounded good through the PA).

    IMO the real issue is that the "amp in the room" sound is ONLY important for the guitar player. The mic'ed amp sound is what is spread to the audience through the PA.

    So ..... if you play in a band that relies on the sound from the amps on stage to fill the venue, than something like the Kemper Kabinet that duplicates the "amp in the room" sound is pretty important.

    If you mic your cab and the PA provides the sound for the FOH (most more successful bands do this) then the local "amp in the room" sound is just for the guitar player.

    If you just play for your own enjoyment, again, the Kabinet route is a very good one.

    Over the years, I have grown to love the sound of the mic'ed tube amp sound and the "amp-in-the-room" is now piercing and unpleasant in comparison.

    Note: Bands that rely on "Amp-in-the-room" stage volume also have an issue with balance of sound in the venue since these cabs are very directional and blast one side of the stage while the other side the guitar volume is very weak in the audience. The answer to the problem is NOT to add more cabs by the way :)

    Agree, and every* recorded sound you ever heard, made with electric guitars and amps, is the sound of a mic'ed cab ....

    * Not DI / line ....


    Cheers !

    The adjective for metal is metallic. But not so for iron ... which is ironic.

    Quote from aamefford

    Thanks all. I’ve read several folks say they use their kabinets in FR mode rather than the speaker imprints. This kind of makes sense, it *should* be the best route to reproduce the rig as profiled. The imprints seem like they might be kinda like using a guitar cab fitted with a particular speaker, but with more variety of speakers. I guess I’m trying to figure out if the speaker imprints are useful, or do they boil down to an interesting gimmick?

    I use the imprints as I prefer that to FR mode, but as per usual people have different views.

    Its certainly not a gimmick as it has a definite effect on the sound - its obviously to reduce the FRFR issue of it not sounding realistic whilst still retaining the flex of the different profiles ( guitar cabs mask the amp sounds IMO).

    However, as mentioned above, this is only for monitoring. I am finding that more venues are getting used to digital solutions and I'm using less and less backline and relying on foldback PA monitoring. I tend to take my Kabinet and end up turning it down or off :)

    Quote from V8guitar

    I use the imprints as I prefer that to FR mode, but as per usual people have different views.

    Its certainly not a gimmick as it has a definite effect on the sound - its obviously to reduce the FRFR issue of it not sounding realistic whilst still retaining the flex of the different profiles ( guitar cabs mask the amp sounds IMO).

    However, as mentioned above, this is only for monitoring. I am finding that more venues are getting used to digital solutions and I'm using less and less backline and relying on foldback PA monitoring. I tend to take my Kabinet and end up turning it down or off :)

    Yep! Me too.

    I am very content with my IEM sound using the Kemper direct into the PA. The only thing I miss out on is the string feedback interaction with the amp (which is seriously needed if need to induce feedback on the strings ..... which I don't most of the time).

    If you need to get your resonant feedback going, a Kabinet used as a foldback pointed at you on stage is a great option.

    It's strange how my ears have adjusted over time. I have been using IEM's since the mid 90's. Before that, like most, I had amps on stage along with a bunch of wedge monitors (what a nightmare!). Sure don't miss all the ringing and feedback ..... or the carrying and loading of all that heavy gear :).

    Quote from aamefford

    It seems that several of us new(er) Kemper owners are pretty curious about the KEMPER Kabinet as compared to the Fender FR10 or FR12. Is one "better?" Are the speaker imprints actually good? Do the speaker imprints work with the FR10 / FR12? Are they accurate with the Fender FR speakers? I am interested in buying one of the two at some point. I don't have the disposable income to buy and try both, so just looking for feedback, on the off chance someone has direct experience with both? thanks all.

    I have a Kemper cab and the ToneMaster FR12. They are very close if you don’t use the imprints, just let the Kemper run as a full range monitor. But when you enable the imprints Kemper wins the contest. If someone stole the ToneMaster FR12 I might just get over it, if they stole the Kemper Cab I’d be ordering a new one right away.

    Quote from steelguitar

    I switched from a FRFR to a guitar cabinet. Once I did the profiles came alive. they sound like shit before with the frfr, now with running through a power section and a guitar cab, a few tweaks and boom!..the sound pops, like sound like the real thing. minimal screwing around, when I should be practicing for my next Nashville gig..

    Quote from Dynochrome

    Kemper through guitar cab is "amp in the room" for me. Kemper direct is Amp, cab, microphone into console for me. Kemper direct into my DAW nicely replaces miking a speaker without miking hassles. They are two different things. Amp+cab to ear (Amp in room) and Amp+mic to poweramp to monitor. (Miked cab to monitor) One way is being picked up by a mic and the other your ear. Much different.

    Quote from OneEng1

    Over the years, I have grown to love the sound of the mic'ed tube amp sound and the "amp-in-the-room" is now piercing and unpleasant in comparison.

    Well said. And if your purpose as a guitar player is to serve the song and the bands performance it is the only way to go.

    Things are getting funny when guitar players want a "sound in the room" just like their hero guitar player - as they know it from records. Well, on records they are hearing miced amps. With the low end cut by the mix engineer to keep space for the bass player etc etc 8)

    My two cents for guitar sounds for song-serving:

    Get yourself a regular PA - which is as FRFR as it gets. Could well be a mini PA like from LD Systems for about 500 bucks. Or some JBL EONs. For moddest SPL a pair of active studio monitors will do the trick. Connect an MP3-Player to the Profiler and the Profiler to that PA (or the studio monitors). Now listen to your favorite songs and mixes. Play with the EQ in the Profilers output section. Do only cuts, no boosts. On many speakers I have to cut Treble by say 2 dB - maybe I am allergic to crossover distortion between mids and highs... And I high pass below say 45 Hz. The goal is to make your favorite songs sound clear and transparent and pleasant for you. Double check again and again with the most neutral pair of headphones you can grab.

    Only AFTER you achieved that kind of reference you can start selecting and fine tuning your profiles of choice. Always fine tune the amp while playing and listening to a well mixed backing track (with the same and consistent loudness level). This is important for your amp loudness as well as the tonal balance within a song context. Do this for every rig you intend to use. The backing track is a permanent reference for your ears. Otherwise they will drift over time and dont serve you well for judging...

    Apropos fine tuning: Even though we got liquid profiling now consider start tuning with the great and unique profiler amp parameters first!

    If you want more vintage - silky - smooth sounds try lowering definition or clarity and pick. Increase power sag. For modern and punchy metal sounds do the opposite. And only after that reach out for good old bass - mid -treble - presence. knobs. Yes, its the 21. century...

    This procedure will reward you with instantly OK guitar sounds on any stage or rehearsal room or studio. And most song recordings for that matter. From here its an ease for the sound engineer to make your guitar sound excellent in that particular venue with that particular PA or song context.

    BTW:

    I got a sound proof live room in my basement with a stereo pair of 12 inch JBL EONs plus the 18 inch subwoofer. Max SPL is well above 125 dB. There is no problem to "emulate" a Marshall Plexi full stack. Sounds earth shaking without changing the profiles or rigs. And no ordinary listener could tell its not a "Real Stack". Its great "amp in the room" AND song serving sound at the same time.

    Ne travaillez jamais.

    Quote from FFiorentini

    I’m trying to use my power rack with a 4x12 cab…are there any settings tricks i have to know to achieve the best experience? (Pure cabinet, kone function, definition, clarity…etc)…big thank you

    Cheers from Italy

    No because for me, I just found all profiles just took on the character of the cab and despite much tweaking ( which ruined the FOH sound) I got a fairly bland sound even with top quality speakers.

    4x12's also do not have the spread and project people think they do. Stand slightly to one side and the sound drops and alters significantly.

    In my choices for monitoring, its the last one I would use - assuming its only for on stage monitoring. If you are trying to play off the backline, that is even more problematic.

    If you are really keen to use one ( and I've no idea why people do these days) then I would suggest merged profiles.

    But that's just me....

    Quote from V8guitar

    No because for me, I just found all profiles just took on the character of the cab and despite much tweaking ( which ruined the FOH sound) I got a fairly bland sound even with top quality speakers.

    4x12's also do not have the spread and project people think they do. Stand slightly to one side and the sound drops and alters significantly.

    In my choices for monitoring, its the last one I would use - assuming its only for on stage monitoring. If you are trying to play off the backline, that is even more problematic.

    If you are really keen to use one ( and I've no idea why people do these days) then I would suggest merged profiles.

    But that's just me....

    This was exactly my experience.

    Quote from V8guitar

    No because for me, I just found all profiles just took on the character of the cab and despite much tweaking ( which ruined the FOH sound) I got a fairly bland sound even with top quality speakers.

    4x12's also do not have the spread and project people think they do. Stand slightly to one side and the sound drops and alters significantly.

    In my choices for monitoring, its the last one I would use - assuming its only for on stage monitoring. If you are trying to play off the backline, that is even more problematic.

    If you are really keen to use one ( and I've no idea why people do these days) then I would suggest merged profiles.

    But that's just me....

    For a good spread sound i use deeflexx. Especially in stereo its so good