how can fractal claim patent beefs when the thing isn't even released yet? Seems a bit premature to me to start that type of crap.
NAMM News - Is there anything new from our friends at Kemper?
-
Dlaut -
April 15, 2023 at 10:22 PM -
Thread is marked as Resolved.
-
-
There’s no way Kemper and their attorneys didn’t look at current patents. If the patent is already granted - then the government(s) looked as well.
I’m not saying Cliff is wrong or right. I have no idea.But for a company (Kemper) that’s been around patents going back (at least) to 2008, I’d be surprised if Cliff’s claim comes to much.
-
Generically speaking, every modeler I’ve had going back to the first Pos claimed to model the tone stack in some form. That was the whole point of them digital models of hardware down to the littlest degree.
I had a fractal and the tone stack part was not independent of the rest of the model. Hard to even imagine what they could claim copyright on a product that no one has seen, heard, or studied. But every other modeler and plug-in is clean.
Can’t wait to play with this feature though.
-
Generically speaking, every modeler I’ve had going back to the first Pos
I am assuming you mean POD and not Piece of S**t
-
I am assuming you mean POD and not Piece of S**t
LOL.
The POD was pretty good in its day. Certainly made an impression on the industry.
-
On the Fractal patent thing; the Fractal patent in question was filed in February 2020. If there is record of Kemper having that idea prior to the filing date, it basically nullifies Fractal’s patent, or at least that claim.
-
Did some light reading. Two of the patents mentioned previously have been abandoned. The remaining one has this as its main (and broadest) claim:
QuoteA method to match a digital amplifier model to a real guitar amplifier, comprising:
1) obtaining an amplifier output filter and an amplifier input filter for the real guitar amplifier;
2) using the amplifier output filter and a model output filter to obtain a corrective output filter;
3) using the amplifier input filter and a model input filter to obtain a corrective input filter;
4)and applying the corrective input filter and the corrective output filter to the digital amplifier model.
I don't see any infringement here, but I don't know the inner workings of the profiler.
If the "matching" described in the first line is the new liquid profile stuff, then there is likely no infringement, since the claim notes BOTH input and output corrective filters.
If the matching instead is taken to mean the profiling process in general - and it is specifically the addition of the liquid profile that is causing infringement - then that would have to mean something like:
- Obtaining an amplifier input filter (= part of the profiling process, capturing a representation of the EQ settings of the amp the profile is based on) for the real guitar amplifier
- Using the amplifier input filter (= part of the profile, representing the EQ settings of the amp the profile is based on as described above) and a model input filter (= tone stacks of liquid profiles, one of the 40 models Kemper has made) to obtain a corrective input filter ( = calculating differential between original reference amp EQ setting - the information provided by the guy/girl originally doing the profile - and the selected tone stack, or applying offset; however you want to describe it)
- Applying the corrective input filter (= addition of the tone stack to the original profile) and the corrective output filter to the digital amplifier model
The claim is based on the method being used BOTH for input AND output. So only if a "similar process" is done for an OUTPUT filter, then I don't see an infringement (hence the red highlight).
"Similar process" here meaning that you can match the process in some way to the wording of the claim - not necessarily the same specifics.
Patents are tricky to read. I doubt Cliff is a patent attorney (and neither am I, by the way - but I've worked a tiny bit with them). So it's very possible that he is in good faith (even if he comes across as... well)...
-
If there is record of Kemper having that idea prior to the filing date, it basically nullifies Fractal’s patent, or at least that claim.
Only if it was publicly available at that date. And it doesn't have to be Kemper having the idea.
I once worked at a company that published a design idea in a very local newspaper in a small village in Croatia (or something like that), because they didn't want competitors to catch on to what they were working on, but at the same time didn't want to enable others to take out a patent if they came up with it themselves
-
I've never been compelled to check out his stuff. Just never interested me.
Then I went to the Fractal forums to see what that's like. Mention a competing product and you'll get some real hate. Rex Rox on the thread you posted in, for example. Small minded.
With this guy Cliff being their 'leader'.......it makes sense.
He is a newer user there. I have not seen him there causing trouble before this week. I can tell he has taken the big fanboy pill.
I am surprised to see how this thread has gone on this forum. This is definitely out of character for here. It looks to me like some of the combative banter here is also from a newer user to the forum. We don't have to feed the trolls.
-
Ha, pos was indeed supposed to be POD.
Classic
-
He is a newer user there. I have not seen him there causing trouble before this week. I can tell he has taken the big fanboy pill.
I am surprised to see how this thread has gone on this forum. This is definitely out of character for here. It looks to me like some of the combative banter here is also from a newer user to the forum. We don't have to feed the trolls.
I got my hand slapped by the moderator for calling the a guy tool.
I just told him to delete my account, which he did.
This Us vs Them stuff is juvenile. If a Fractal product did it for me, I’d get one. I really don’t get the animosity. -
Christoph has said (more than once) that they've taken the process as far as it will go.
Given that the Kemper's process uses a totally different technology than Tonex/Quad Cortex (that being AI or machine learning....whatever), there's no way to tell if a longer profile time would actually be helpful.
I def seem to be getting good results with the tone x wav file another member posted here for refining. So i guess i personslly could say i could do with something like that in the unit, so i do not have to hook up my external device or computer. I think the playing refinings a tad inconsistant. Unless you have a set of riffs you play same everytime. Im curious to know if they upgraded the processor through the years. One option could be a desktop profiling thats like the rest but you can dump in kemper. Maybe your right an christoph has no choice but to flog a dead horse
-
You should probably quit your day job and be a music producer then. I spoke with Michael Wagner in Nashville at a Music store he frequents there. (Produced or mixed Mötley Crüe, W.A.S.P., Overkill, Accept, Great White, Stryper, Poison, Keel, Alice Cooper, Nuno, Megadeth, Janet Jackson, Ozzy Osbourne, George Lynch, Metallica, Vito Bratta and Skid Row) and he said he could not tell the difference and neither could any of his clients that took the same challenge. Other top producers report the same thing. So you believe you can hear what all these people can't?
Ya know, it was another member here who said i would not be able to tell. I just said what i said. Its not a cat fight but seriously, i can. And others can too. Im not superman. And.... If you go check out the null tests its there on charts that kempers not 100 percent. So if that true then why cant some of us hear it? Is your stance that i cant hear it? Or that there is no difference to hear? That what you gota ask yourself. I just dont think you like me saying it. But it just facts, im not kemper bashing. I love my kemper an ive customised mine an love the thing i aint giving up yet. Super excited bout usb interface . With all due respect to Wagner, and his kemper interview an what hes done, just like he wears glasses an i do not, my ears are younger than his too. Some off us have better hearing than others. Not a big deal or insult just how is. An tone subjective, many of you love tone junkie an think his profiles sound awesome. God damn i think they suck. All have this wierd cardboard tappy artifact to them. I got the family pack, i know. But he destroyed a NAM profile too i couldnt beleive it. So its his profiling gear, not the kemper. Even good players can have bad ear for tone. Look at steve vai. His legacy amps a mushy mess. He likes it so who cares, his playing is what the people hear. Your stance is im a nobody bedroom warrior who am i to say this or that. Remember, nobody said better. Just different. Peace
-
Ya know, it was another member here who said i would not be able to tell. I just said what i said. Its not a cat fight but seriously, i can. And others can too. Im not superman. And.... If you go check out the null tests its there on charts that kempers not 100 percent. So if that true then why cant some of us hear it? Is your stance that i cant hear it? Or that there is no difference to hear? That what you gota ask yourself. I just dont think you like me saying it. But it just facts, im not kemper bashing. I love my kemper an ive customised mine an love the thing i aint giving up yet. Super excited bout usb interface . With all due respect to Wagner, and his kemper interview an what hes done, just like he wears glasses an i do not, my ears are younger than his too. Some off us have better hearing than others. Not a big deal or insult just how is. An tone subjective, many of you love tone junkie an think his profiles sound awesome. God damn i think they suck. All have this wierd cardboard tappy artifact to them. I got the family pack, i know. But he destroyed a NAM profile too i couldnt beleive it. So its his profiling gear, not the kemper. Even good players can have bad ear for tone. Look at steve vai. His legacy amps a mushy mess. He likes it so who cares, his playing is what the people hear. Your stance is im a nobody bedroom warrior who am i to say this or that. Remember, nobody said better. Just different. Peace
I definitely think the profiles are highly dependent on who is making them and who is using them. For example i generally dont care for tone junkies stuff either but im after differet types of sounds.
-
I’ve used both the Kemper and the AxeFxIII. They’re both great units. Different, but great. It’s not like we’re cheering for football teams
-
Ya know, it was another member here who said i would not be able to tell. I just said what i said. Its not a cat fight but seriously, i can. And others can too. Im not superman. And.... If you go check out the null tests its there on charts that kempers not 100 percent. So if that true then why cant some of us hear it? Is your stance that i cant hear it? Or that there is no difference to hear? That what you gota ask yourself. I just dont think you like me saying it. But it just facts, im not kemper bashing. I love my kemper an ive customised mine an love the thing i aint giving up yet. Super excited bout usb interface . With all due respect to Wagner, and his kemper interview an what hes done, just like he wears glasses an i do not, my ears are younger than his too. Some off us have better hearing than others. Not a big deal or insult just how is. An tone subjective, many of you love tone junkie an think his profiles sound awesome. God damn i think they suck. All have this wierd cardboard tappy artifact to them. I got the family pack, i know. But he destroyed a NAM profile too i couldnt beleive it. So its his profiling gear, not the kemper. Even good players can have bad ear for tone. Look at steve vai. His legacy amps a mushy mess. He likes it so who cares, his playing is what the people hear. Your stance is im a nobody bedroom warrior who am i to say this or that. Remember, nobody said better. Just different. Peace
Big difference. Well known names with well trained intonated ears after many years in the studio. You a anonymous guy on a forum claim something you don't can or have to back up. There are many anonymous guys claiming many things on the net.
-
Only tried an Axe a couple of times. It sounded good. I already owned a Kemper, and was happy with it, but if i hadn’t i might have bought an axe.
For me really both would clearly have satisfied my needs.
-
Big difference. Well known names with well trained intonated ears after many years in the studio. You an anonymous guy on a forum claim something you don't can or have to back up. There are many anonymous guys claiming many things on the net.
There is no difference at all. We’re all human with different abilities and as goldensheaf quite rightly says, some have better hearing than others due to many factors. It’s not unimaginable to think that someone like Joe Perry (random) has deteriorated hearing after all these years of loud gigging (he may not) but that doesn’t mean his tone can’t still be great…but it also doesn’t make him the sole source of truth on tone either. The sooner we can start to appreciate others opinions, the better. Just crack on with life and enjoy!
To put this in perspective, there are occasions when I prefer my tone to someone I’ve heard on a record. That doesn’t mean my tone is better or that theirs is worse, it just means that I have my preferences, and that’s the point being made that you’re arguing against. Which is just an opinion.
Just because Mark Knopfler played a Kemper once or twice or in a tour, does NOT mean it’s perfect and can’t be further improved upon. Nor does it mean that Knopfler himself didn’t face challenges with the unit. It’s naive to think otherwise. -
There is no difference at all. We’re all human with different abilities and as goldensheaf quite rightly says, some have better hearing than others due to many factors. It’s not unimaginable to think that someone like Joe Perry (random) has deteriorated hearing after all these years of loud gigging (he may not) but that doesn’t mean his tone can’t still be great…but it also doesn’t make him the sole source of truth on tone either. The sooner we can start to appreciate others opinions, the better. Just crack on with life and enjoy!
To put this in perspective, there are occasions when I prefer my tone to someone I’ve heard on a record. That doesn’t mean my tone is better or that theirs is worse, it just means that I have my preferences, and that’s the point being made that you’re arguing against. Which is just an opinion.
Just because Mark Knopfler played a Kemper once or twice or in a tour, does NOT mean it’s perfect and can’t be further improved upon. Nor does it mean that Knopfler himself didn’t face challenges with the unit. It’s naive to think otherwise.Well said.
It's also very often a matter of people working with completely different kinds of tones (and guitars, and preferences, and monitoring setups, and...) - where some will notice the differences, some will not - and in some cases, the differences may not even show up for one person, where they will for another.
-
Big difference. Well known names with well trained intonated ears after many years in the studio. You a anonymous guy on a forum claim something you don't can or have to back up. There are many anonymous guys claiming many things on the net.
Seriously what the hell you rambing about. Your anonymous too.
There is no difference at all. We’re all human with different abilities and as goldensheaf quite rightly says, some have better hearing than others due to many factors. It’s not unimaginable to think that someone like Joe Perry (random) has deteriorated hearing after all these years of loud gigging (he may not) but that doesn’t mean his tone can’t still be great…but it also doesn’t make him the sole source of truth on tone either. The sooner we can start to appreciate others opinions, the better. Just crack on with life and enjoy!
To put this in perspective, there are occasions when I prefer my tone to someone I’ve heard on a record. That doesn’t mean my tone is better or that theirs is worse, it just means that I have my preferences, and that’s the point being made that you’re arguing against. Which is just an opinion.
Just because Mark Knopfler played a Kemper once or twice or in a tour, does NOT mean it’s perfect and can’t be further improved upon. Nor does it mean that Knopfler himself didn’t face challenges with the unit. It’s naive to think otherwise.Thanks jon. Nothing wrong with having objective view on things, allows for improvement. Some people here get so defensive. It makes ya laugh, a month ago I couldve said kemper should have usb interface and liqued profiling with tone stacks an the kemper army would have destroyed you saying the kempers fine an your a nobody ha.
-