Atomic CLR loudness and clipping ("Solved!")

To become deaf is not advisable.
Ask Paul Gilbert...

Good to see this solved. Now take care of your hearing!

A guitarist who asks his band to play not too loud...never heard this before...

I don't think the issues you described depend on the cab.
Consider the role the room plays in the overall sound: in a closed environment, a messed-up/muddy sound is an inevitable consequence the more the sound level goes up, because the room's sound personality becomes more and more prominent.
Also, human perception of sounds varies with the sound level.
Too many variables here, really.

Anyway, do yourself a favour and order a couple of professional, custom-made ear plugs. You will be using them your life long (when attending concerts as well), and at the cost of a couple of good cables they're certainly a good investment

Quote from JayMitchell

If the CLR isn't loud enough with the Master level set to a position below maximum, then turn it up. That's why it's there. There is no way you will ever get full output from a CLR if you don't max out the Master level. If it's already maxed out, you can't get any louder.

Mr Mitchell,
I've just received two active wedges from Tom King and currently testing them. I have a couple of doubts I'd be glad you could sort out.

1. When the CLR operates in its linear region, and SPL being equal, do different combinations of input and output knobs affect amps' or loudspeaker's operating mode, apart from the S/N ratio?

2. Once the input level has been properly set for the source and fixed, do the poweramps/loudspeaker work better/more linearly/more reactively (impulsive power) at certain volume settings, provided they stay in their linear region?

Thanks for your time and your willingness

Quote from viabcroce

1. When the CLR operates in its linear region, and SPL being equal, do different combinations of input and output knobs affect amps' or loudspeaker's operating mode, apart from the S/N ratio?

There is only one "operating mode." Setting the input level properly will prevent the input signal from ever clipping the A/D and maximize S/N. The former is more critical than the latter.

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2. Once the input level has been properly set for the source and fixed, do the poweramps/loudspeaker work better/more linearly/more reactively (impulsive power) at certain volume settings,

No. The CLR behaves the same at any level from the threshold of audibility to maximum SPL.

Thanks.
Maybe my first question requires some more words from me (not a native English speaker here). My question was: at certain knob positions, given a steady input signal, and with the correct input setting, I get a certain SPL. Is there any characteristic (impulsive response, time intermodulation, damping...) which changes if I lower the input setting and raise the output setting so to have the same SPL as before?

The reason why I ask this is that I'm currently testing the cabs as a home stereo subsystem. The correct input setting is 7. Master is set at 2.
I've the impression (still checking this, lots of variables involved of course) that, if I lower the input setting at 2 and raise the Master so to get the same SPL (about 3), I get less impulsive power from the system (for example punch on drums and slap bass). I'm not talking about huge differences necessarily, and individual sensitivity and attention may vary
Maybe at extremely low input settings the pot is not working fully linearly? And/or the A/D converter has less dynamics available?

Sorry if the question was already clear and you already answered. Your there is only one operating mode raised some doubt in me (possibly a language barrier).

Quote from viabcroce

at certain knob positions, given a steady input signal, and with the correct input setting, I get a certain SPL. Is there any characteristic (impulsive response, time intermodulation, damping...) which changes if I lower the input setting and raise the output setting so to have the same SPL as before?

Of course not. The system remains linear in that case.

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I've the impression (still checking this, lots of variables involved of course) that, if I lower the input setting at 2 and raise the Master so to get the same SPL (about 3), I get less impulsive power from the system

In that case, you will have less total power available, since you will be unable to reach 0dBFS in the DSP with that input setting. If the SPL truly remains the same - it would require careful instrumented testing to establish that this is the case - the only difference would be the poorer S/N due to your modified settings.

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I'm not talking about huge differences

There are none.

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Maybe at extremely low input settings the pot is not working fully linearly?

No.

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And/or the A/D converter has less dynamics available?

No. The A/D converter has the same "dynamics available" at any setting of the input potentiometers. The only difference is whether you are utilizing its full 24-bit depth, which affects S/N.

The sound of the CLR will not change with the changes to the level controls you describe. If you are unsuccessful in keeping the SPL exactly the same - even a .5dB change is likely to affect your impression - then you may mistakenly perceive a change in sound character. The available maximum power, however, will change. You can only reach maximum power with a 0dBFS level in the DSP and the Master level set to maximum.

Yes, thanks. This solves my doubts. Of course, trying to get the same SPL at a glance is just a guess, and my procedure is nothing but scientific. This is exactly the reason why I asked you

If lowering the input does nothing but lowering the S/N ratio then it makes sense to use a passive, line-level mixer in the hi-fi system for permanently connecting several sources to the CLRs and not having to set the volume (again) at a glance on each cab every time.

Quote from Atomic_Amps

Hi Brick_top,

I think some of the confusion here is based on the perception that the Speaker Limit Indicator is a clip light. It is not. It is a signal that you are approaching the operating threshold of the speaker. There is at least 6dB more SPL in the CLR when you start to light it. The setting for it is too conservative. In hindsight we shouldn't have included it at all. We're considering getting rid of it in future production to avoid this type of confusion. Ultimately, it has no real purpose because there are other protective mechanisms that will prevent the speaker from being damaged. The moral of the story is to disregard the Speaker Limit Indicator and use your ears.

I find it very strange to hear people say the CLR is not loud. Most customers say it can be dangerously loud. The CLR specs are not hyped they are accurate (regardless of what other manufacturers may or may not be doing). When we say the CLR can do 120dB continuous / 130dB peak, that is based on conservative ratings using professional measurement techniques and test equipment. That's how loud it is for better or worse.

Hope this helps.

Best,

Tom King
President
Atomic Amplifiers

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Hi Tom,

Thanks for the info as always. Thats why I bought from you BTW as I love my two CLR's. And for me, yes they are LOUD when I want them to be.

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the band is rehearsing very loud, its unconfortable really. Any doubt about lack of volume is gone now. don't need to get this loud I need to get the band to turn down a bit.

One secret that makes good bands sound great, is that their stage volumes are like the practice volume levels. If yours are not, then you will suffer hearing each other either because you are too loud, or too soft up on stage. Fix this before you hit the stage, no matter which direction you need to go, and remember that if a band mate won't cooperate with the rest of the band's wishes in sound reinforcement, then he/she wasn't much of a mate to begin with.