Routing option: Amplifier Off

1st Official Post
    The Profiler Model referred to in this thread is ...
    ☑️ Profiler Head/Rack

    Hey!
    I think it would be very useful to have the option to turn the Cabsim AND the Ampsim off on one output.

    I would love to use the Kemper in conjunction with a real amp.
    (Using the Kempers effect section, so that if I e.g. turn on a booster, it gets louder on Kemper main out AND on the amp.)
    To me this would seem like one of the most obvious use cases of a Kemper. Certainly a very useful one :)
    There's already a "Cabinet Off" switch for the Monitor Out - if an "Amplifier Off" switch was added, that would exactly do what i want (maybe still having an issue with level and impedance going straight into an amp input - but one could dial in a low level on that output or use a reamping box).
    As far as I know however, that configuration is not really possible rn.

    ...I know, you could:
    - use the Monitor Out with Cabsim Off into a power amp and from there into a cab (which is cool and I use that)
    - use the Monitor Out with Cabsim Off into the FX Return of an amp (...which in my experience doesn't work with some amps, humming issues etc.. And in any case you won't get the sound of the amp you're going into, by fully bypassing the preamp section, and instead kind of having the sound of two power amps, the simulated one still going into the real one)
    - use the Send output with DI Analog into the Input of the Amp, however losing everything the Kemper does (gates, effects, etc.), it's essentially a splitter then
    - disable the Ampsim on the Kemper altogether

    But what I'd loke to do specifically is having an Amp on stage (with it's preamp sound and everything) but using the Kempers effects.
    While still being able to send the Ampsim (...the normal Master signal) to the FOH (so they have a clean nice signal and as an added bonus a second Amp sound to work with).

    So having a routing option with "Effects only" or "Stack Off" or an "Amplifier Off"-switch on an output ...in a best case scenario with level and impedance suitable for amplifier inputs, just like the "DI Analog"... would solve all my problems with the Kemper and really expand the range of possibilities.
    I know btw. that this would put all of the effects (also the one that on the Kemper are after the Stack, where the Send/Return would be on a real amp) in front of the Amp. But that really wouldn't matter to me. And furthermore there would obviously just be the possibility to also routing options for using the Send/Return on the real amp.

    Please correct me if that routing option already exists somehow (I'm pretty sure it doesn't but at the same time almost can't believe it because it's so obviously useful).

    Thank you, David

    • Official Post

    I don't understand the advantage of this extra effort. The basic idea of the PROFILER is that you create a PROFILE of your "preamp sound and everything" and use its simulation in a complete integration with effects. You can switch not only effects, but amp simulations as needed, and you monitor with the same sound, that you send to FOH.

    The fact that the cabinet simulation can be switched off selectively has a different quality, since a guitar speaker cabinet "in the room" sounds differently than the same cabinet picked via microphone. And while the audience in a larger venue always hears guitar sounds including microphone, some players prefer their in the room sound of their physical guitar cabinet for monitoring on stage. With the introduction of the Pure Cabinet feature even that need is diminished.

    You seem to assume, that your original tube (pre)amp sounds differently and better than its PROFILE. This assumption and your whole "business case" based on it is questionable.

    It is so obviously un-useful to me....sounds like you want to run your amp on stage and use Kemper effects, but run the full blown Kemper with Amp sims into FOH?

    If that's the case, I think the Kemper is the wrong solution - the whole point is it mimics your amp. Otherwise, why not just run your amp through a PA in the traditional way if the KPA its not good enough on stage?

    Plus they will sound totally different (otherwise you wouldn't want to do it) and to me that is pointless. Yes they will never sound the same but not enough to run a KPA and guitar amp. Tuning the relative sounds would be a nightmare.

    Sorry, I don't get it...

    Thanks for your answers! :)

    I understand your points and mabye the "problem" (or rather the wish for that option) is more specific to me than I thought.
    However I still think it would be very useful and cool, probably not only to me.

    To maybe make my reasons for wanting that more comprehensive, there's two big scenarios where I'd really like to have that option:

    First, some context on how/why I use a Kemper, so everything else makes more sense:
    I have a Kemper Stage since it makes it very easy to travel with just a regular carry-on-luggage case to different gigs/rehearsals and in cities (on trains etc.) where carrying an amp and a pedalboard would be difficult.
    Setup wise, I like to use the Kemper very much like I would pedals and an amp: Having a clean(ish), edge-of-breakup amp-profile and doing the rest with the digital pedals.


    1.) First, the pragmatic one:

    Often enough in rehearsal studios and in smaller concert venues you have a very mediocre PA and usually not enough wedges (if any), that you often have to share with other musicians. However, there's usually some kind of backline with (often surprisingly nice) amps.

    And while the Kemper can certainly sound great with a great PA, I hate how it can sound with a not-so-great PA (obviously not the Kempers fault).
    So in those situations, I'd rather just use the fantastic sounding amp that's there and sacrifice having "my" amp profile over using the Kemper Ampsim with a bad PA/speaker. While still having my pre-programmed effect section (reverbs, solo boosts, distortion pedals, all of that) / perfomances / songs.

    ...Because of the way I use the Kemper (as discribed above), switching out the Amp section with an actual amp would be the same thing as any guitarist just using another amp at a gig (because theres a backline provided or shared with another act) with their own pedalboard. Which I, like most guitarists, have done many times with actual amps and know how to deal with. Of couse, I could carry a speaker with me everywhere but besides that not being very fun and sometimes not possible (with public transport etc.), that would defeat (one of) the main advantages of the Kemper for me.

    Also monitoring-wise, it could really come in handy to just take one of the amps that's there, set it up so you hear yourself well, and thereby make the monitoring situation easier for everybody. Because you're now not solely reliant on a wedge that you have to share with two other musicians - basically adding a sort-of-monitor to the setup.

    I rehearse with different people in different rooms all the time. If I just run the Kemper over the PA, it's of course always a compromise. However there's absolutely always a guitar amp there that I could set up right next to me and utilise as my monitor (and I usually do just that...by carrying a little power amp with me...but not every amp has the speaker jack accessible, and especially old amps usually don't have a fx-return either). So having the option to use that amp as it was intended (while still being able to just carry the Kemper around with me and not having multiple setups for different scenarios that you often might not know beforehand) would just add a lot of flexibility for me.

    I realise that would kind of be possible right now by locking out the Amplifier (turning it off and locking it). But that doesn't feel like a very elegant solution since I might want to save some settings and that would overwrite the amp setting with whatever turned off and locked amp I used last time which is just something that could cause trouble when using the Kemper with the ampsim on again next time or when jumping between projects (...using profile A on project A and profile B on project B but now having unwillingly overwritten a project B song with a project A ampsim because you wanted to turn down the reverb a little bit and didn't think about unlocking the locked out, turned off ampsim before pressing save...).
    Also still the level (and I guess also the impedance?) of the line signal coming from the kemper would make it not work really well with an amp input.


    2.) And second, the less pragmatic one in more resourceful situations (i.e. bigger stages)

    Lots of big touring acts use a Kemper in conjunction with actual (mic'd up) tube amps on stage - to always have a reliable, consistent signal added to their palette that the FOH can work with.

    So the fact that the Kemper profile might sound totally different than the actual amp would not be a problem - but rather by design.
    You could have a british style amp on stage and additional Twin Reverb profile (that you could also have on your IEM/wedges) and work with both - just like lots of guitarists (those with backliners :P) have two or more often very different sounding amps on stage. But all without having to carry two actual amplifiers plus an extra pedalboard.

    So in this scenario, the fact that the Kemper profile doesn't mimic the Amp you have on stage is the advantage rather than a problem/comprimise.
    And if I want an amp on stage, or a Kemper with a cab and the cabsim off for that matter (because I want any feedback at all, which a quiet stage with IEMs simply prohibits) I'd have to bring a power amp and a speaker with me anyways...so I might as well bring an amp instead (or even use the one that's already there) and have added flexinility and broader sound pallette.

    I realise that the second point is maybe a bit more niche (and less "important" than the first one, to me at least) in the real world, but so are lots of other functions (i.e. morphing etc.) on the Kemper and it's still very cool to have that possibility.


    So I think this simple routing option would add a lot of flexibility to the Kemper, at least for me, and especially in professional situations where the circumstances are less than ideal.
    Also I can hardly believe that I'm the first person to think "well that thing is cool but how about I hook it up to the amp that I already own standing next to me, so I can have two amps at the same time ;)".

    And even if I'm actually the exception in actually needing that feature (btw. I think all of Kempers "competitors", or rather modelling pendants like for example a Helix have that routing option), it's such a simple small thing that could (I assume) be implemented so easily that I'm sure people would be quick to find a way to be creative with it even if they didn't know they needed it.

    Davidw thank you for taking the time to make such an eloquent well reasoned argument. I understand your points and can see how you would use the feature. It is definitely not something I personally would have any use for even with the additional information provided so it isn’t a feature I would personally want/need.

    One of the trade offs with any device like the Kemper is simplicity of use Vs flexibility. The more routing options added to the output (or an other deep dive) menu, the more potential there is for user error to cause problems. Every additional tickbox is something else that can be wrongly configured or accidentally changed in the heat of the moment (similar to you example of locking the amp block then saving something unintentionally).

    One option might be to add an EFFECTS ONLY output source. Similar to the Delay/Reverb output source currently available for wet/dry use but with all the other FX included. That wouldn’t need any additional checkboxes or controls to be added to an already crowded menu but would simply add one more choie to the scrolling list in the output source settings. I also think FX ONLY would be a clearer way to describe what is going on and why it might be useful when players are trying to understand potential uses.

    • Official Post

    For scenarios where you don't want to use a mediocre PA, there are a few solutions:

    • If you prefer to use any tube amp available, you can shut down the stack section in the PROFILER, lock it that way during the concert, and loop a PROFILER in just as an effects device. You can shut down the stack section since you don't intend to send a signal to the PA anyhow.
    • Or you just use the guitar cabinet available locally, drive it from a PROFILER PowerHead (or via an external neutral power amp) with Monitor Cab. Off activated. This eliminates the influence and accidental spread of locally available tube amps. This way you can still feed a signal to FOH.
    • You gain most flexibility and avoid the risk of mediocre local tube amps and guitar cabinets by using a compact KEMPER Kabinet. This way you can use the entire PROFILER signal chain and always achieve consistent results. And you are free to feed the PA or not.

    I must admit I'm not aware of artists who are mixing tube amps and PROFILER amp simulations live. From what I see, there is a strong trend towards down-sizing the equipment needed on tour. The smaller the better. PROFILER and backup PROFILER in a rack with supporting equipment. That's it.

    Agree that I appreciate the explanation but still struggling to get it.

    If monitoring is that important, why not set up an on stage monitor with the KPA? That's why I have the power rack and Kabinet so if I want on stage monitoring I know its very similar, plus less equipment. Alternatively I've just bought the player, added a £65 Harley Benton power amp and I can run that through any cab or Kab - works brilliantly. I think that solves your problem full stop doesn't it?

    I might be wrong but most pro guitarists I don't believe use a mix of the KPA and amps as you suggest ( although I might be wrong and there will of course be somebody doing it).

    Yes some pros take multiple amps either for different sounds and sometimes ( but not that often) to blend sounds. Most pros would not have a different on stage sound/solution as FOH mainly because they use IEM's.

    Some people also use valve amps as their power amp, so still use the amp sim but use the valves to add warmth - not something I ascribe to but this is more common.

    I bought the KPA so I don;t have to lug another amp around and I think many people are the same, so your use case I think is pretty niche.

    As you say though, if its easy then why not. Perhaps others will disagree and see the need that you do :)