Kemper Kab with built in power amp???

Quote from silvioherrmann

now I'm really curious ho it's gonna turn out in the evening! Of course I'll let you know about the result. I will A/B it with the 4x12 Marshall.

Did you put it on the floor without bass boost or did you place it somewhere higher with bass boost?

Interesting what you say about a second Kabinet... so you would not recomend to get a second cabinet for a fuller sound?

So not really done it with a back to back comparison and only used the second Kab once, but my initail observations are

1) 4x12's are way more directional than you think. Off axis they don;t sound that good and levels drop massively

2) FRFR ( and this applies to Kab although not strictly) have way more spread, giving for me a disproportional amount of volume/power compared to a regular 1x12

3) Because of point 2, I foudn little difference spreadwise. Volume dropped ( presumably due to Ohmage) so I had to turn up. So diffcult to discern a massive difference...but then I'm not missing any volume anyway.

I had it on the floor I think with bass boost on.

Quote from V8guitar

1) 4x12's are way more directional than you think. Off axis they don;t sound that good and levels drop massively

that’s the main reason I gave up on 4x12 cabs. To get to a level where I was happy on stage the front of the audience get blown away like being in the blast zone of a nuclear bomb.

Quote from halipino

i just don't see in a rock/metal situation how it can deliver.

I’m not a metal guy but I can tell you that a 5 piece brass section right behind your head is pretty &£*@in’ loud ?

I friend of mine recently posted a photo of his old rig from his stadium days on Facebook. he is a Kemper stage user now but that rig was a pair of Mesa Lonestars in stereo for crunch and a Fender Twin for clean. He said it was so loud he couldn’t stand in front of it even on those gigs. The funny thing was he pointed out the clips on the front of stage set which were used to hang the dummy 412 grills for the audience ?

Quote from halipino

I hear ya... lol no pun intended...

?????

Quote from halipino

were the Mesa Lonestars 1x12 or 2x12, not that it matters I guess...

2x12 open back.

I used either a single Mesa Thiele EVM12L or a pair of them with my Dual Rectifier for years. The second cab didn’t add any volume just gave better spread on bigger stages.

Quote from silvioherrmann

no offense, but if someone saying that 1x12 is enough to be heard over a loud drummer hasen't obviously played with a really loud drummer for Rock or Metal. Tried it several times with a 100W Tube head + 1x12 V30.

You might get heard but there is no buttom end. Just noe enough punch.

Yesterday I took my Kabinet with my Kemper with built in power amp to rehearse with a jazz drummer. There it worked without problen. But he's very disciplined so with him you can play without ear protection.

Tomorrow I will take it to rehearshal with our Rock drummer just to doublecheck again.

I'll keep you posted. Maybe the Kabinet does some magic....

A single V30 can only handle 60W where the Kone/Kabinet can handle 200W (more than triple the power)

That doesn't translate to triple the loudness... but it should be more than 50% louder than a V30.

It definitely won't give you the same tone a 2x12 or 4x12, but that extra power handling should be enough to be heard over the rock drummer.

Also IMO tilting a 1x12 cabinet back on an angle to aim the sound or even putting it on some kind of stand makes difference to me. Not really something that matters with bigger cabs.

Quote from GuitarGuy83

A single V30 can only handle 60W where the Kone/Kabinet can handle 200W (more than triple the power)

That doesn't translate to triple the loudness... but it should be more than 50% louder than a V30.

You also have to factor in efficiency. The comparable Celestion driver is stated as 98 dB @ 1 watt on the Celestion site, a V30 is 100 dB @ 1 watt. So, you are using up a significant chunk of the extra power driving a slightly less efficient speaker. Twice as much acoustic power would be about right. Just to complicate things, loudness, which is more subjective, is measured in phons.

I really wanted to do the test and an A/B comparison between the Kabinet and my 4x12" Marshall speaker. The only way to find out IMHO

But when I arrived in the rehearsal place the floor was flooded with water A tube of the heating system had a breach some floors above us. Now we are cleaning and drying the place instead of rehearsing. That’s

As soon as we can use the place again I’ll do the test

damn, really sorry to hear that.

let us know how you get on when everything has dried out and you get a chance to A/B

I use one Kone for Metal only and I get quite realistic feedback and ways of low end. And our drummer is the loudest I ever had. My power section has 250 Watt. Although I have to turn the volume up all the way the real magic of cutting through is just setting up the frequencies properly.
The main reason of not being heard in my band is the bass player using to much high mids and the guitar having too much bass. Then loudness could not overcome that.
I remember having a H&K 100 Watt Tube Amp and although turning it as loud as it could get I could not hear myself even with a 4x12. In that time I did fancy scooped sounds.

In my mind Metal has also to do with sufficient mids and not too much gain. It took me more than 15 years to realize that. At least in a live environment. Recording is truly different due being able to shift frequencies.

So to sum it up: One Kone to master it all when caring about proper setup. And think about putting the cab on a Plattform. I use my FRFR just for that scenario. Both together have 800 Watt but I have more mud when using both cabinets together and cannot be Properly heard that good. Weird but true.

Quote from halipino

so are you saying you have 1 kone in each of those cabs?

The cab on the bottom is a Spark (2x10 + 2 tweeter). The one on the top has one Kone inside and is all I need (active cab). The Spark is great for cleans but for distortion I prefer imprints.

Both together sound alone great as well but not in the context of band sound. Maybe one day I return to the Spark but currently the Kone provides more dirt and is not as tidy as the Spark.

I've been reading this conversation and I have a comment. But let me say I have some rock experience playing out, not a ton. None in very large venues.

I thought the point of the Kone, powered or not, was to serve two main functions. There maybe more, these two stick out.

1. Practice in a jam session or bedroom with great sound

2. Act as a monitor for guitar player in a large or louder session while the KPA feeds front of house.

I would never expect a 12" speaker fed by a solid state box to accommodate anything much bigger than a medium sized bar type venue. Of course nobody is going to mic a Kone cab, that's why we have the KPA in the first place, to either feed a Kone, or PA or both. I wouldn't consider buying multiple Kones, it seems redundant and unnecessary.

So am I thinking correctly here or what?

If you can't hear yourself at practice in a metal band why not just feed the KPA into the mains with the vocalist? You don't have to put it all in, just enough.

Or put 4 x Kones in a 4x12 cabinet and be done with it.

Quote from halipino

oh cool man.
so 1 Kone seems to be enough eh? Interesting that it performs better for you in the distorted territory, that works for me.

Well I need full throttle at the cab (roughly 250 Watt) and the KPA with - 5 to -8 on Output. Not much headroom for sure but it works for me at least in rehearsal (practice room).

Not sure what is the standard for certain venues these days but I never play(ed) without a PA-System live so the cabs are just for my pleasure and for feedback. Therefore Main out to foh and imprints to my Kone.

Quote from ejanuska

I've been reading this conversation and I have a comment. But let me say I have some rock experience playing out, not a ton. None in very large venues.

I thought the point of the Kone, powered or not, was to serve two main functions. There maybe more, these two stick out.

1. Practice in a jam session or bedroom with great sound

2. Act as a monitor for guitar player in a large or louder session while the KPA feeds front of house.

I would never expect a 12" speaker fed by a solid state box to accommodate anything much bigger than a medium sized bar type venue. Of course nobody is going to mic a Kone cab, that's why we have the KPA in the first place, to either feed a Kone, or PA or both. I wouldn't consider buying multiple Kones, it seems redundant and unnecessary.

So am I thinking correctly here or what?

If you can't hear yourself at practice in a metal band why not just feed the KPA into the mains with the vocalist? You don't have to put it all in, just enough.

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Yea, for the most part.

The only reason to have multiple Kones is either to run separate cabs for stereo or, to use in a 2x12 or 4x12 cab purely for tone (Kone imprints replicate the tone of a speaker but not a cab).

But if we are talking about loudness, you'd want to mic up any rig in a venue larger than a small bar (or run direct to the FOH if using a Kemper). The 1x12 Kab should be sufficient for situations small enough where rigs don't need to be mic'd up.

Quote from StefanErtle

Not sure what is the standard for certain venues these days but I never play(ed) without a PA-System live so the cabs are just for my pleasure and for feedback. Therefore Main out to foh and imprints to my Kone.

I can’t recall playing with guitar coming only from the bacline since sometime around 1995 ? back then I was using a Mesa Studio .22 combo. Bought a Dual Rectifier and shortly afterwards starting using everything through FOH. A Dual Rec for most stages is total overkill. My ears have never forgi

I think everyone is saying the same thing....you should avoid using your backline for your frontlne sound at all costs, regardless of venue size.

This applies to 1x12 or 4x12....as mentioned Im always surprised at the lack of spread from a 4x12, the difference of standing in front vs slightly off centre is quite large in my experience so its by no means a utopia solution even for pure backline.

I have been conversely surprised at the spread from FRFR type speakers...in other words I don;t think you can compare them easily and the logic of needing 4 kones to keep up with a regular 4 x12 I suspect ( but I don;t know the physics well enough) I don;t think holds up...

Quote from V8guitar

I think everyone is saying the same thing....you should avoid using your backline for your frontlne sound at all costs, regardless of venue size.

This applies to 1x12 or 4x12....as mentioned Im always surprised at the lack of spread from a 4x12, the difference of standing in front vs slightly off centre is quite large in my experience so its by no means a utopia solution even for pure backline.

I have been conversely surprised at the spread from FRFR type speakers...in other words I don;t think you can compare them easily and the logic of needing 4 kones to keep up with a regular 4 x12 I suspect ( but I don;t know the physics well enough) I don;t think holds up...

The disperion pattern, of the Kone resembles that of a normal 12" guitar speaker - by design. I gather that was the intention according to statements by CK. Interesting points otherwise.