If so, please post a recording. Then post a reamp through a profile of said gear so everyone can compare directly and hear the Kempers shortcomings, and Christoph can maybe do something about it.
Sonic won't profile the gear he has which he claims can reproduce that tone.
Below is a quick EQ match of ancientmariner's Mr. Scary intro. Both were reduced to mono to put them on an equal footing. Ideally, you want the target track to sound as close to the reference as possible prior to EQ matching and I had no control over that, but all things considered I think the result shows what EQ can do:
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nicely done
Thanks AM, much appreciated effort.
Below is a quick EQ match of ancientmariner's Mr. Scary intro. Both were reduced to mono to put them on an equal footing. Ideally, you want the target track to sound as close to the reference as possible prior to EQ matching and I had no control over that, but all things considered I think the result shows what EQ can do:
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Both to AM and CF, nicely done, making progress. Thanks.
This is a good exercise path ... I need to hear this at home tonight on the right monitoring setup but I can already hear a clear difference in the upper gain structure still. This is one of the exact elements I've been talking about. In this particular case, it may or may not be able to be further refined with EQ, hard to say at the moment. This upper gain area is one of the very elements that is effected by output section being pushed, especially with tubes rated for breakup as was common back in the 80's, especially for the types of tones I'm after. Aspen was very successful at marketing his "new tube rating system" around the studios in LA. Many of the places I recorded would stock his tubes to have them on hand for this exact purpose.
Anyway, as I said already, I suspected the Dokken tone was likely more achievable than the Dio tone since the Dokken tone is more straightforward in terms of gear used, and not much pushing on the front end.
And I fully acknowledge, there is a multi-mic/cab element here that is a factor in these kinds of tones, (which is why I posted the Dual Cab feature idea under feature requests on the forum, go take a read if you already haven't, very valuable feature to have)
Sonic
As for me profiling my own gear, I'll explain this again for those who don't know the history (or simply choose to keep trying to stir arguments): :Right away something didn't sound right to my ears with most profiles for the types of tones I was after. So I decided to try profiling a test amp just to see if maybe my KPA was borked. My try at profiling was an abysmal failure. To make a long story short, the KPA could not profile the amp well at all, and that is how, after much wasted time & effort, I learned about the limitations of profiling the preamp/power stage saturation.
Did you profile the test amp in a studio? If not, why would you have to rent a Uhaul to lug your other gear to one?
This is a good exercise path ... I need to hear this at home tonight on the right monitoring setup but I can already hear a clear difference in the upper gain structure still. This is one of the exact elements I've been talking about. In this particular case, it may or may not be able to be further refined with EQ, hard to say at the moment. This upper gain area is one of the very elements that is effected by output section being pushed, especially with tubes rated for breakup as was common back in the 80's, especially for the types of tones I'm after. Aspen was very successful at marketing his "new tube rating system" around the studios in LA. Many of the places I recorded would stock his tubes to have them on hand for this exact purpose.
Do consider that the intro in the studio version is also likely triple or quad tracked. The fact I was able to get as close as I did using a single tracked guitar is pretty amazing, in my opinion. I also didn't pick the profile nor have the ability to tweak it. However, I picked ancientmariner's clip because it was well played and didn't sound like it was recorded using a cell phone. I mean, if you listen on really good speakers, you're going to hear differences. It's not a perfect match, but that test simply shows that with a profile that's a little closer and tweaked properly, you can definitely get there.
Did you profile the test amp in a studio? If not, why would you have to rent a Uhaul to lug your other gear to one?
All my rigs and most of my vintage gear is in storage. I can't use them at home, that's a big reason why I got the KPA. I profiled the test amp at home, I have a few small amps here still just for practicing.
Do consider that the intro in the studio version is also likely triple or quad tracked. The fact I was able to get as close as I did using a single tracked guitar is pretty amazing, in my opinion. I also didn't pick the profile nor have the ability to tweak it. However, I picked ancientmariner's clip because it was well played and didn't sound like it was recorded using a cell phone. I mean, if you listen on really good speakers, you're going to hear differences. It's not a perfect match, but that test simply shows that with a profile that's a little closer and tweaked properly, you can definitely get there.
Also sounds like there's an octaver in the original (or maybe the bass doubling, though I doubt it, as I can hear the digital bit-rate "bite" that those 80s octave units had).
Do consider that the intro in the studio version is also likely triple or quad tracked. The fact I was able to get as close as I did using a single tracked guitar is pretty amazing, in my opinion. I also didn't pick the profile nor have the ability to tweak it. However, I picked ancientmariner's clip because it was well played and didn't sound like it was recorded using a cell phone. I mean, if you listen on really good speakers, you're going to hear differences. It's not a perfect match, but that test simply shows that with a profile that's a little closer and tweaked properly, you can definitely get there.
Thanks for the kind words, i recorded that about 6 months ago as a test to see if i could match the tone and the reverb depth. I had fully intended to quad track it and eq it to get it closer to the original. Dokkens guitar sound was always a bit distant to me, if that makes sense. That profile is a top jimi solodano profile and i felt it had the same characteristics. Your eq job on it is quite remarkable for a single recorded track.
All my rigs and most of my vintage gear is in storage. I can't use them at home, that's a big reason why I got the KPA. I profiled the test amp at home, I have a few small amps here still just for practicing.
If you profiled the test amp at home, why can't you profile one of your amps at home? You don't need to drag your entire rig collection anywhere. One amp and cab would suffice.
Also sounds like there's an octaver in the original (or maybe the bass doubling, though I doubt it, as I can hear the digital bit-rate "bite" that those 80s octave units had).
I don't know, but I can hear what you're talking about.
If you profiled the test amp at home, why can't you profile one of your amps at home? You don't need to drag your entire rig collection anywhere. One amp and cab would suffice.
My test amp was a micro amp. I have internal home circumstances that do not make for blasting a proper rig, and moreover I'm on last warning with authorities and neighbors. So no, I will not be dragging any rigs home and cranking them up, sorry. That wouldn't even be an option anyway, there's other equipment that requires a studio, my DAW interface alone and the few mics & pre's I have at home are not going to cut it. Plus there's console and other considerations as well that are needed to really do it right. I would think you would know this already.
My test amp was a micro amp. I have internal home circumstances that do not make for blasting a proper rig, and moreover I'm on last warning with authorities and neighbors. So no, I will not be dragging any rigs home and cranking them up, sorry. That wouldn't even be an option anyway, there's other equipment that requires a studio, my DAW interface alone and the few mics & pre's I have at home are not going to cut it. Plus there's console and other considerations as well that are needed to really do it right. I would think you would know this already.
Home circumstances and last warnings notwithstanding, I think you may be overcomplicating things a bit - yes, maybe you need a lot of specific gear etc to absolutely nail a particular tone, but as a proof of concept I don't think that should be necessary. If those pieces of gear are absolutely essential to the tone, I don't see how you could expect to find profiles that sound exactly like you want them to. The "congestion" issue you refer to I have a hard time thinking would be due to a lack of certain pieces of gear.
If you don't have the facilities for profiling a loud amp without getting evicted that definitely an issue, of course. But I think it would be beneficial to limit the scope of the problems to something more essential.
A thought - have you looked at the HAWP sessions by @timowens? He has done a bunch of different profiles in several batches, changing the variables and documenting settings etc extensively. There might be some pointers in there. Probably not something that would give you the end goal you're looking for, but it may reveal something in any case.
I'm hearing more excuses than a United Airlines CEO. Your results are your true intentions.
My test amp was a micro amp. I have internal home circumstances that do not make for blasting a proper rig, and moreover I'm on last warning with authorities and neighbors. So no, I will not be dragging any rigs home and cranking them up, sorry. That wouldn't even be an option anyway, there's other equipment that requires a studio, my DAW interface alone and the few mics & pre's I have at home are not going to cut it. Plus there's console and other considerations as well that are needed to really do it right. I would think you would know this already.
Regardless of your domestic situation, you don't need access to a studio or a console to properly profile an amp. Further, practically any DAW will work. Lastly, unless you're booking time at a top notch facility, prices for studio time can be fairly nominal. The point is there's a way for you to profile at least one of your amps. Instead, you'll spend months sorting through hundreds or thousands of profiles made by other people, some of which may have cost money, but you won't invest any of your time or money profiling your own amps because you're not certain it'd be worth it. You spent how much on a Kemper but you can't be bothered to spend a couple hundred bucks making any of your own profiles?
It's also worth mentioning that I haven't heard an exact duplication of the Rainbow In The Dark tone from anyone using real amps on YouTube, SoundCloud or anywhere else for that matter. What does that prove? Nothing.
You continue to make assumptions that aren't true, draw conclusions based on those false assumptions, and haven't even profiled an amp before (per your own acknowledgement). Many of the statements you have made clearly demonstrate a complete lack of understanding on multiple levels IMO, and I wouldn't be surprised if you never even stepped foot in a real studio.
The fact you haven't heard any Dio tones with real amps proves nothing, just another diversion, a tangentially related opinion that is nearly meaningless.
If you can't stay constructive, cease with the personal attacks and friction-mongering, then kindly get off the thread.
Sonic
have you tried the character parameter in the cab section all the way turned up? Turn it all the way up, edit till you get that complex raspy snarl ( I hear it now) then turn the character knob back. You might wanna use headphones to do this. Maybe even dj headphones, no joke.
let me know when you get there and it doesn't work all the way exactly close
also, don't rely on a jc800 profile or even a Marshall profile for that matter. Practice making any and all rigs , high gain, snarling, devastators, and make snapshots of them for reference. Use many different cabs and also cab maker is now your new friend.
apologies for spamming the thread LOL
