HOLD the RIGS/PAGE buttons to scroll quickly inside objects & Customization to choose navigation direction

You are right, it is a bit incoherent.
But what would the critics be if we really walked "down" the alphabet?
In German you don't say "down the alphabet" when you go from A to Z.

The alphabet is an index like if we would use numbers. It would be odd to count them up by the down-key.

Unfortunately there are less industry standards visible today, than it used to be. (See the Audi example).
It is often about "moving a cursor over the content" or "moving the content in the window", witch is an opposite action. (Apple example).

At lease I haven't seen up/down buttons yet in a vertical alignment where the lower button increases the index. Have you?

Quote from ckemper

At lease I haven't seen up/down buttons yet in a vertical alignment where the lower button increases the index. Have you?

Not sure if the question is for me or not. Anyway, I give an example, with a picture.

I have here, right under my eyes, my old Nokia 3100 phone (the picture is not mine, but the first picture I found on the net). There is just under the screen a central button with up, down, left and right arrows. If I push the down arrow, I enter the "contact" page, which displays the first alphabetic contact (in alphabetic order). If I push again this down arrow, I get the next contact in alphabetic order, which is the second name of my list. The down arrow increases the index in the alphabetic list of contacts, and of course the up arrow decreases it.

So I think this indeed qualifies as a device with up/down buttons in a vertical alignment (at least if you hold vertically the phone so that what appears on the screen is not upside down), where the lower button increases the index. And now you can see it.

Once again, I don't say that right is right and left is wrong, but simply that this behaviour seems to me the most common I ever saw around me. But then again, we don't need to exaggerate the problem. I just happened to mention it, and I certainely won't be struggling anymore on the subject.

Best regards.

Jean-Jacques.

Quote from ckemper

At lease I haven't seen up/down buttons yet in a vertical alignment where the lower button increases the index. Have you?

If is a vertical list yes (see television channel list, sat decoders...etc...) and the rig list on the KPA is vertical (2 pages at time). Not a big deal, but sometime I also press "down" to go to the next letter....

My intuition tells me automatically that an up arrow is forward, down arrow is back.
So up is A to B, down is B to A.
Left and Right arrows cause less misunderstandings, but I have no problems with the up and down concept.

Quote from Gibson

Hi meow461

I follow you all the way and have be thinking the exact same thing.
I always push the wrong bottom when I go true rigs with alphabetic ups and down...

it should be like you have nicely pointed out much more innovative to use..

+1

Quote from ckemper

You are right, it is a bit incoherent.
But what would the critics be if we really walked "down" the alphabet?
In German you don't say "down the alphabet" when you go from A to Z.

The alphabet is an index like if we would use numbers. It would be odd to count them up by the down-key.

Unfortunately there are less industry standards visible today, than it used to be. (See the Audi example).
It is often about "moving a cursor over the content" or "moving the content in the window", witch is an opposite action. (Apple example).

At lease I haven't seen up/down buttons yet in a vertical alignment where the lower button increases the index. Have you?

How about every single computer interface out there? Go into your OS, sort a folder by name alphabetically, now press the down button. It selects the file below, the next in the list, down is always analogous to next. Computers, phones, any list system. Just as with rotary dials clockwise is also always next/down and counter clockwise is always previous/up.

In an alphabet, B is next after A, which is prior to B, not the other way around. When reading we read in the west left to right, top to bottom, next is always down.

Honestly I'm having a hard time thinking of a situation outside of the Kemper interface where up is next and higher in magnitude outside of some car gearboxes, in that situation it's down to conditioning because it's not so much up/down as push/pull, and we associate push with go faster, pull with go slower. You push to go up a gear higher, pull to go down, lower, so even there it's going through a list (except with the few German makes who are renowned for doing things back to front to the rest of the world).

If you envisage any such up/down/left/right mechanism as going through a sorted list, which is the behavior most people have become conditioned to thanks to computers, menus, file systems, lists, reading etc then you can see why most people are confused by the upside down Kemper buttons.

To me the KPA up/down is counter intuitive and I'm constantly correcting myself, this tends to get worse if you go into the "browse" mode and suddenly the behavior is reversed back to how it should be (for me), with down going to the next entry. However it appears there are a couple of others who share your preference. I think the best solution would be if possible to add a preference to swap the up/down behavior, that way those that find the current up/down to be disorienting can change it, and those that like how it is right now can keep that.

On midi remote pedals, up goes up the index. Do you want to reverse that as well?

Quote from ckemper

On midi remote pedals, up goes up the index. Do you want to reverse that as well?

Good point, but they're just dealing with a small number of abstract numeric banks, not a sorted/alphabetical list. Often their layout is side by side rather than vertical, and I've never encountered them in a cross layout. I've seen them labled with left and right arrows too in which case right is always next or higher, and also sometimes + and - symbols, which are pretty explicit.

To me MIDI pedlaboards aren't the same, you don't have the cross layout, you dont' use them to navigate through sorted lists (but unsorted data) and you don't use them with your fingers to do a lot of navigating, just the occasional change. So I still think that this is wrong on the Kemper and extremely idiosyncratic given the type of data the KPA is navigating through with those buttons. I don't think I'm alone on that, but you can argue about the logic of which is best all day long it's just going to be intuitive one way or the other to different people. So an option to change it from the prefs seems like the easiest solution to me. To me it seems that way everyone could be happy and it could becomes a non-issue.

^ It sounds very Solomonic... and works! A perfect, non-invasive, uncomplicated example of customization to me