Muffled and Dull sound - Or is it just me?

    Hi!

    I have had my kemper (power rack) for a while now, and am always flip flopping between if it sounds good or not, the last few weeks i've been really honing in, learning all the settings ect.

    After alot of playing I have found that there is no escaping this dull muffled sound that is on all of my profiles, I have alot of third party profiles (Britt, Tone Jukies, SinMix). I am questioning if it is just me or not, so I thought I would record some samples of profiles that I use, to see if any of you folks can hear it the same as me, or if this sounds the same as your ones? The sound is less apparent on clean sounds, but it is still there to my ear.

    I have factory reset, set all global EQ to flat, I have high and low tone cut (80Hz low - 12K Hz high), Pure cab is set to 5, although messing around with this doesn't make any difference to the muffling. I have played with all the amp settings, definition, clarity ect, to no avail, I can make them sound better, but nothing compared to the sounds on YouTube, using the same guitars and profiles ect. I tried different interfaces and different speakers (KRK Rokit 5 and Kali LP6). I use the main out's in stereo with XLR cables.

    Any help would be massively appreciated, because I am at my wits end with this.

    Britt - 69 Marshall 50 8

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    TD - Kir Ham

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    Britt - J800 1 5 2

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    Tone Junkie - ACE 30 B2

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    All played through Gibson Les Paul Studio bridge pickup (although changing guitars does obviously change the tone, the general muffled sound doesn't change), into Focusrite 18i20, into Pro Tools.

    Cheers

    Alaric

    Edited once, last by Alaric6000 (February 3, 2021 at 3:39 PM).

    I have to admit that I don’t hear anything particularly muffled or dull in those samples. The 2 MBritt rigs do sound a little muddy but nothing that cutting some low mids wouldn’t clean up. The Hammet rig sounds pretty bright and scratchy to my ears - although I have to admit Kirk always sound scratchy to me so it might be just too accurate ?


    Do you get the same result on headphones as via monitors?


    Are you comparing the you tube videos etc on the same setup?


    Is it possible that your room has some issues that could be causing things to sound strange that may not be reflected when listening elsewhere (or using headphones)?

    Hey!

    Headphones do improve the sound to my ear, but only at a high volume, which obviously isn’t ideal if I want to be able to hear when I’m old haha.

    I thought it may be the monitors, but I have changed speakers, and I have actually moved house (not because of the Kemper lol) so they’re in a different room and setup now, than before, with the same issue.

    The demo’s I’m comparing to are on the same setup, and just sound a lot clearer generally.

    But it 100% could be my ear that’s the problem, they just feel like they’ve got some blankets over them to me. It’s interesting that they sound good to you though...hmmm.

    In my experience it really depends on the medium you're listening with. My headphones sound much duller and more muffled than the Kemper Kabinet. I always thought M Britt's profiles weren't usable, judging them through my Beyerdynamic 880 Pro. But through the Kabinet they sounded nice and clear. Other profiles that sounded better through headphones now sounded too harsh.

    Your sound examples don't sound muffled at all on my end (at least not for humbuckers) and I'm sure increasing definition will make them even brighter and add clarity. Have you tried the sounds in a mix?

    The biggest difference between your playing and the examples online might be the actual guitars. I felt that all my guitars sounded extremely different.

    It might also be good for you to add some distance to the sound source. One thing I like a lot over headphones is to add the 'stereo widener' in post-EQ (setting to 0.7 - 0.8) and also a little bit of concert hall reverb. Suddenly listening to my profiles via headphones sounded more like a real amp.

    That all being said, in the end it's about the profile. I have specific profiles for all of my guitars that work well and have failed many times making profiles sound great that sounded great on youtube presentations. I kinda quit trying to figure out why that is and just moved on until I found some good stuff. I'm sure many of the profiles were intended for live use, others for studio use, some with FOH in mind and some with FRFR.

    Thankyou for your responses!


    Obviously it is my perception of it that is the problem, I generally do record and play quite quietly on my monitors (nice neighbours) but perhaps I should turn them up a bit to hit that 90db zone. Although again the demo’s I am comparing them to are played at the same volume, and it just seems like night and day.

    I just find it so frustrating that I can’t seem to find any tones (especially mid-high gain) that jive with me and my ear, but considering you all can’t hear a problem then I will persevere! I just wanted to make sure that I didn’t have a faulty one, or if there were any settings that I missed.

    Hello!

    At first I had the same problems, but then I made the experience that the headphones (my choice at the moment, near-field monitors are on the way) makes a big difference. I had a Beyer, (something with 770, don't remember). Now I have an Ultrasone 900. Ok, a lot of money, but these are worlds!

    On the other hand, personal feelings also play a role. You have bought rigs. Ok, but that doesn't mean you have to like them. May be you don't like a whiskey that costs € 150 a bottle, if you know what I'm talking about. You still have the option to pimp the rigs. Often it's just small things. In the amp menu, for example, definition, tube shape or direct mix, to name just a few. And always one step at a time. For example, I am very "economical" with the EQ. My opinion, the EQ changes too much.

    You play an LP, with standard pickups I assume. After I think you play metal, try other PU's. Even the Kemper cannot conjure up a high-end device out of "simple" guitars (please please do not get this wrong, it should not sound derogatory!). Try EMG's or similar. I also built EMG's into my LP. Exactly for this reason. And now it sounds great... for me... And that's most important ;)  (as a tip: If you buy EMG's take the Zakk Wylde Edition. The potis are longer, specially for LP's)

    Don't give up and keep trying. The Kemper just sounds great ... :thumbup:

    And for "adjusting" the sound, don't hear it too loud!

    Regards

    Peter

    Hey Peter,


    Yes, I know what you mean, don’t worry it didn’t come across derogatory at all!

    I do have an Ibanez with Fishman Fluence Modern pups, and you’re right, it does tighten it up a bit, but even so, a stock Les Paul into a JCM800 should be the hammer of the gods tone, but I still couldn’t escape THE MUFF! I think maybe I just need to hone my skills with adjusting the profiles a bit more, and turn it up! As I know the tones to make my dreams come true are in there! Haha.

    Thanks!

    Quote from Alaric6000

    JCM800 should be the hammer of the gods tone, but I still couldn’t escape THE MUFF!

    Since you're using the M Britt profile, maybe you just don't like the cabinet he uses. I think he usually goes for a 2x12 with Celestion Vintage 30s.

    Check out some of Tone Junkie's profiles since he usually offers two speaker versions and his profiles have generally more clarity than M Britts (which are dedicated for live use and should be played LOUD). I have several profile packs of the same amp from both Tone Junkie and M Britt and I usually prefer Tone Junkie's work.

    Yup...i felt and still feel the same way about the Kemper, especially players that like a brighter tone. No matter what profile you use, you will need to tweak them using the front EQ basics, adding an EQ after the amp section, or messing with the Global EQ. I find this more when using a real cabinet, profiles are a bit brighter when using an FRFR, but still need some tweaking. Britt files are so dull sounding to me that I gave up on them, unless I feel like tweaking the hell out of them. In your case and mine, I am afraid the Treble and Presents controls are our best friends, or a simple EQ in the chain.

    Nothing on YouTube ever sounds the same even at the exact same settings, this also goes for real tube amps.

    Quote from Kaschko

    Since you're using the M Britt profile, maybe you just don't like the cabinet he uses. I think he usually goes for a 2x12 with Celestion Vintage 30s.

    In the case of the profile mentioned above it is indeed Michael's preferred cabinet with a Celestion CL80 in it. That indeed creates sometimes less high end than other speakers. Personally I like that cab in those profiles quite well as it sounds good when cranked 8o ...but indeed not super good at low volumes.

    P.S.: In the 69 Marshall 50 pack Michael has different speakers. There is a V30 version of the profiles as well. Might be worth a try but the OP will have reason for using that one.

    You can also try this if it might be your guitar (especially your neck pickup):

    Put a Graphic EQ in front of the amp section. Put in the following settings.

    80 Hz: -4db

    160 Hz: -4db

    320Hz: -1db

    640Hz: -1.5db

    1.25kHz: 0db

    2.5kHz: +1db

    6kHz: +0.5db

    10khz: -0.5db

    Let me know how that sounds.

    Hey!

    I have to say, this community is F@*king AWESOME! So many quick and helpful responses!

    So I’ve tried a few suggested tricks out, and after switching cabs with a few profiles, (One of the SinMix cabs, if you want to know which I will post it tomorrow) it seems my Kemper is in full slay mode, in headphones at least.

    I haven’t been able to try with monitors yet, as it’s a bit too late here to play loud. But will try them out cranked tomorrow, along with the other tips, and will test the headphones again with fresh ears.


    Regarding front EQ and presence controls, I tend to want to stay away from them, because as I understand it, the profiles are a snapshot of an amp, and by my thinking, the further I EQ to try and correct any issues, the further from the amp I become, perhaps that is flawed thinking.

    I am hoping that tomorrow with these new amp+cab combos I have created, that I will crank my monitors a bit louder and hopefully recreate the tone I just had in my headphones.


    This does pose another question though, and that is when it comes to mixing, if the Britt profiles, out of the box, are meant to be played loud, then does that mean that in a mix the tone won’t be good unless played at loud gig volumes? That seems counterintuitive to me, if that’s the case. As within my mixing the muffled tone doesn’t just go away with the addition of drums and bass.

    Quote from Alaric6000

    because as I understand it, the profiles are a snapshot of an amp, and by my thinking, the further I EQ to try and correct any issues, the further from the amp I become, perhaps that is flawed thinking.

    It's a little flawed, yes. Many amps have plenty of knobs, bright switches, fat switches, different channels etc. M Britt often only has three or four profiles of an amp and that amp would in reality have far more sounds than these three or four examples. So tweaking the profile doesn't necessarily 'betray' the almighty amp creator.

    It's also not uncommon for a guitarist to use an EQ pedal, for example if you play a Strat and a ES335 through the same amp.

    When it comes to pre amp EQs like the one I suggested, I look at it rather like a pickup update. What if my mediocre neck pickup had the clarity of a PAF? for example.

    Quote from Alaric6000

    This does pose another question though, and that is when it comes to mixing, if the Britt profiles, out of the box, are meant to be played loud, then does that mean that in a mix the tone won’t be good unless played at loud gig volumes? That seems counterintuitive to me, if that’s the case. As within my mixing the muffled tone doesn’t just go away with the addition of drums and bass.

    How often would a live sound be 1:1 the same as the sound you choose for a recording? Usually it's not even the same amp. So when it comes to recording you definitely have the right to adjust your profiles to taste or - most importantly - to what fits the mix.

    Most recorded guitar tracks are heavily processed in the mix, aren't they? So don't be afraid to turn up definition on your recordings and take it back when playing live.

    I suppose I meant the fact that an amp EQ is very much part of the amp, where as the Kemper EQ feels like more of a “one size fits all” EQ. Ideally I would find a profile of those awesome amps I can’t afford at the settings I would use them at. But perhaps the infinite variables between cabs, mics, profile conditions, was it raining that day, who was prime minister. All have an effect on the sound, so finding the golden goose would be hard without synthesising something extra, on top the amp. But yes, I wouldn’t include external EQ’s pre or post stack as moving further from the amp, but rather working with the amp.

    And yes, you’re right about the differences between live and recording I just always loved the fact that the Kemper would allow you to have a consistent sound between live and studio at least dry, before EQing everything in post to have its place in the mix. I just couldn’t find the sound. But I’m looking forward to trying it out tomorrow.

    I think you should never forget that a profile isn't a copy of an amp but a copy of that am at a certain setting. That's why there are usually more than one profile of an amp when you buy them from a professional profiler. And nobody can guarantee that the perfect setting for you and your guitar is in there. If you were in the room with the amp and figured out the sweet spot for you and your gear you could probably go back to the Kemper profile and get that sound by tweaking the EQ.

    But I understand that you want to limit yourself and I actually do the same. The Kemper can be too complex if you allow yourself to go into every corner of the settings. I also usually only tweak definition and take away some bass (depending on the guitar) on my favorite profiles. Too be honest though, I've never played any of the amps that are now my favorite Kemper profiles so I've no idea how close they are to the settings I'd dial in with the real thing. At the end of the day, I also don't think it matters too much as long as it sounds good.

    Regarding the idea that the "Kemper would allow you to have a consistent sound between live and studio" I believe it's a myth. I asked about this several times in this forum and it just doesn't seem to be the way it works, even if it was one of the biggest selling points for me, too. You need to adjust your profiles to the FOH of each venue - and that's why it's good that you can tweak them so much.

    Quote from Kaschko

    Too be honest though, I've never played any of the amps that are now my favorite Kemper profiles so I've no idea how close they are to the settings I'd dial in with the real thing. At the end of the day, I also don't think it matters too much as long as it sounds good.

    Totally! If it sounds good it is good ?