Not possible with the KPA?

Quote from ColdFrixion

In my opinion, the added pumping and snappy attack isn't a product of the amp so much as engineering prowess. I have little doubt it was added in post after the fact, much the way engineers add a similar pumping and snappy attack to percussion. If someone can show me an amp reacting like this in a raw recording, I'm all ears. For instance, listen to live performances of Rainbow In The Dark. You won't hear the pumping or snappy attack. The dynamics are fairly consistent.

This seems the closest so far. I still need to get onto proper monitors to review, may not happen tonight but definitely tomorrow at latest. (Unexpected family matter)

Was this JSX profile taken from RE ?

Pumping has zero to do with the tone structure aspects I'm referring to, so even though that isn't quite matching in the clips, it can be disregarded. As @sambrox suspected, one difference is in the upper end, there's still a different gain content going on that creates the hair and bite (which helps form sort the classic Marshall snarl) that I haven't heard out of the KPA yet. The KPA track has that typical raspy thing going on that is what seems to contributes to the KPA not sounding real at times IMO. If the KPA clip had the right upper end content it might be good enough to call matched. But again, I need to get on proper monitors to listen yet....

Thanks once again to those who've provided, or planning to provide, constructive contributions.

Sonic

Quote from Tritium

As much as I love Dio, and totally respect Viv Campbell's talent, I am not a big fan of his tone, especially on "Holy Diver", although, that probably has nothing to due with him and everything to do with the recording engineer and/or producer. His guitar is way too compressed, and IMHO does not pop out if the mix...even during the most important part (the solos, of course).

Now, compare Viv's tone with early Yngwie in Alcatrazz...for instant, the guitar and solo on "Suffer Me". Yng's tone is so open, clear and bell-like, yet still with beautiful gain structure and sustain. I think of it as a heavy metal violin tone.

Now, IMHO, Viv's use of Dimarzio Dual Sounds (essentially Super Distortions) and a Les Paul are not helping his guitar jump out...which is exactly what does occur with Yngwie's setup of a vintage Strat with Dimarzio FS-1s, into a DOD-250, straight into a dimed Marshall MkII (model 1987).:

Studio Version

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Live Version (Metallic Live '84)

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I mean, just listen to that "holy grail" golden note at 03:31 of the 2nd video. Chills, dudes...I get chills!

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I agree about Viv's tone, I was never a huge fan of the tone per-se, more the material. But that tone is just one of many that demonstrates some of the attributes that I can't get yet out the KPA, that's the reason I chose it as an example. And yes, the Dimarzio's he uses aren't helping matters in terms of an open tone, nor is all that compression on the track.

Yngwie is a pioneer in his playing all on his own, just great ,and good solo tones. But I can't stand Yngwie's rhythm tones, yuk.

@Dimi84 , thanks for this ! I hope to get around to catching up on things tonight at home.

I'm getting an error accessing the SoundCloud link though.....

We still need to figure out how external pedal boost (overdrive & tube screamers) fits into this equation since that is 3rd key element in many of the 80's tones. Can the KPA handle profiling some of that on the front end as well along with some preamp and hard power stage cranking?

@Monkey_Man , mind you I haven't been able to listen Dimi's clip yet, but you are correct in that once you hear (or learn to hear) what I'm referring to it then becomes apparent what I've been saying all along. When high gain guitars are set into mixes, due to the way they are often set, it is the upper midrange and the nuances of gain content that make the difference between great guitar tones, and more importantly the difference between real vs. fabricated. This is what caught my ear immediately the first day I plugged into the KPA at home, I realized something wasn't right. Again, keep in mind this still does not mean the issue is the KPA, it could be a tweaking thing or profiling matter as well. The whole point of this thread (and other's I've tried to convey things on) is to simply get the tones I'm looking for while also trying to find out what the root problem is so we can either get it resolved or learn how to tackle it. And everybody stands to learn and benefit from this.

It is not yet clear if the congested/raspy attribute of tones found in almost all the profiles I hear out of the KPA are the same underlying issue but it seems to me they may very well be related.

Sonic

Quote from Dimi84

The boost I'm using here is internal to the amp but not much different from using an external one. And it profiled ok. Nothing particularly off about it (again, apart from congestion/raspyness, blah blah).

What is the model of Laney? I'd like to research and learn what kind of boost is inside....

Ok, on break I borrowed a set of headphones to listen....still need to listen at home on proper monitors, but heard enough to make these comments:

@Dimi84 , sounds interesting, yes, can hear some of the output mojo starting to come in. For future reference you're going to want to dial back the EQ on the amp in the mid/low areas to get that stuffiness out. That's a pretty typical side effect of cranking up an amp without re-balancing the EQ settings on the amp. I should have mentioned that when you indicated you were going to try some power stage testing. Apologies, my bad.

@ColdFrixion , Ok, the tonal structure is best I've heard so far, better than I was able to get using existing profiles so far. However, it is definitely not right, still not real sounding to my ears although getting close. It's that upper area we've been discussing. You've come this far, by all means it would be great if you truly feel the remaining difference is post production. I don't believe so, and I say this because I've never heard of that being the case in everything I've worked on.

Back in the day, these sounds came about as a matter of standard practice, that's what's so different compared to us looking back and thinking there's tricks involved, analyzing details. There really were no tricks in the sense of the missing elements we are chasing. We never analyzed details back then as we are doing now because everything just came about as standard practice. Using the right rig and standard studio gear/techniques just produced the results we are chasing today. If there's ways to do some kind of post production to get the missing elements then by all means somebody please share, but that certainly wasn't the case back then. Whatever gets us there today I'm open to, the procedural path doesn't have to be the same. Some of you guys who are more up on all the modern digital tools & tricks might be able to solve the remaining differences, I simply have no idea.

Sonic

Here are some tips for anybody who is interested in setting up a rig for output section involvement....
These are general guidelines I have found work well as standard practice. However I am coming to realize maybe this isn't common knowledge, so thought maybe it would be helpful to share.....

- USING A CAB THAT CAN HANDLE THE POWER OF THE AMP.....
- Connect, but turn off, any OD/boost stomp
- Set the preamp/MV low (think spanky clean edge of breakup)
- Start cranking up the volume to max, hit an A chords and if a muddy mess occurs start backing down until it starts defining back up. If at this point you do not sense any output stage "breakup"/distortion you may need different tubes and re-biasing. The best tones sometimes are obtained with low rated output tubes, but that isn't always a requirement.
- If the tone is stuffy in the low/mid area, then dial back those areas on the amp's EQ, and re-balance volume again.
- Then start bringing up the preamp gain, continue to raise as long as good definition & tone is retained.
- Turn on the stomp and adjust accordingly.

Repeat the same sequential paradigm using small adjustments as needed to make final refinements to the tone.

Oh - also - keep in mind the presence control can really alter the overall sound of the amp when you start hammering the output section, so you may want to treat that as a whole separate tone shaping tool in the guidelines above, it can vary between amps depending on the circuit design involved.

When cranking a tube amp and using multiple gain stages you want to pay close attention to the tweaks you make as the smallest of nuances can have a greater impact than at lower volume levels. Don't simply move a knob by an increment of "1" and assume it's a small alteration. Once you get near a good tone, start being careful as to what you tweak and how many tweaks are done at once, or you may have to start the sequence all over again.

This approach should help in the vast majority of instances for those of you guys wanting to get the real cranked amp sounds found on so many of the recordings back in the day. Mic choice & placement are other important factors but I'm not getting into that here., the important part is start with a rig that is producing the proper elements to begin with, and this approach should help get you there. Lastly, keep in mind some amps (or tubes) are just not the kind that like to cooperate for these tones, but even still cranking them up will at least get that speaker/amp interaction going which is also a part of the power section contribution. Always try to identify the best sounding speaker(s) in the cab to mic. They will not necessarily be the same ones you may be used to micing when the amp is not loud with the output section highly engaged.

Hope this is helpful information of some use, inside insight from the past you aren't probably going to get from most public resources.

Cheers,

Sonic