Not possible with the KPA?

    That's a valid point, Dimi. Grunge for example had some tones that were extreme output mush. Then again I never considered those tones actually tones, the sound was as bad as the music it was affiliated with IMO. LoL

    The technique I described though is the same thing that will work for everything from KISS, AC/DC era through the mid 80's tones, Dio, Dokken, Priest, Maiden, on and on. Each would require varying nuances of the balance between boost/preamp and output sections, but the technique is relatively standard for anybody wanting the "full amp tone" experience that is USABLE. That's the whole point of the procedure, so you end up with usable tone instead of a garbled up mess.

    Best results are usually with EL34 type of amps IMO. 6550 and 6L6 can work as well, just have to learn the nuances of how the tubes and amp designs each impart their unique color.

    Sonic

    Quote from SonicExporer

    That's a valid point, Dimi. Grunge for example had some tones that were extreme output mush. Then again I never considered those tones actually tones, the sound was as bad as the music it was affiliated with IMO. LoL

    The technique I described though is the same thing that will work for everything from KISS, AC/DC era through the mid 80's tones, Dio, Dokken, Priest, Maiden, on and on. Each would require varying nuances of the balance between boost/preamp and output sections, but the technique is relatively standard for anybody wanting the "full amp tone" experience that is USABLE. That's the whole point of the procedure, so you end up with usable tone instead of a garbled up mess.

    Best results are usually with EL34 type of amps IMO. 6550 and 6L6 can work as well, just have to learn the nuances of how the tubes and amp designs each impart their unique color.

    Sonic

    Yes, I did not phrase myself correctly -- it's standard, pretty much, the cab part being another story. I used to dial in amps in that fashion for the most part. Get to shitty fuzz mess, the dial back, blah blah blah, boost in front, ect ect ect. But lately I seem to be getting an addiction for fuzz shit. I don't know why. I should probably check up with the doctor.

    As you said little changes do matter still though, so yea, not surprised it's difficult to find an exact profile to match the tone. I don't know for sure but I don't think most people doing profiles reach that power stage point you are describing. Maybe sometimes I've heard it (I think it was Guido jcm profile) but other than that, cannot recall. Most profiles fall just short of the "mojo", not enough on the power stage.

    Ha, yeah get that fuzz addiction checked out before it's too late !!

    I agree with your opinion on most profiles stopping short of output stage mojo. What the hell is the point of having a tube amp and playing rock/metal if you aren't going to break the windows? . ?( That makes as much sense as a lumberjack wearing a dress.

    Quote from SonicExporer

    @ColdFrixion , Ok, the tonal structure is best I've heard so far, better than I was able to get using existing profiles so far. However, it is definitely not right, still not real sounding to my ears although getting close. It's that upper area we've been discussing. You've come this far, by all means it would be great if you truly feel the remaining difference is post production. I don't believe so, and I say this because I've never heard of that being the case in everything I've worked on.

    Back in the day, these sounds came about as a matter of standard practice, that's what's so different compared to us looking back and thinking there's tricks involved, analyzing details. There really were no tricks in the sense of the missing elements we are chasing. We never analyzed details back then as we are doing now because everything just came about as standard practice. Using the right rig and standard studio gear/techniques just produced the results we are chasing today. If there's ways to do some kind of post production to get the missing elements then by all means somebody please share, but that certainly wasn't the case back then. Whatever gets us there today I'm open to, the procedural path doesn't have to be the same. Some of you guys who are more up on all the modern digital tools & tricks might be able to solve the remaining differences, I simply have no idea.

    The pumping and snappy attack aren't native to the amp, or at least I've yet to hear an amp react in that fashion in a raw recording, which indicates to me that there was more going on in post than simple EQ shaping. I also know that guys like Michael Wagener used to (and still does) mix two (or more) guitar tracks into a single channel using different mic positions and/or add an additional clean guitar to achieve an original tone for each channel. Contrary to my original opinion, after getting my hands dirty trying to deconstruct part of the recording, I think each channel was double tracked at the least. That said, it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that the added upper content were the product of an additional layer.

    Quote from ColdFrixion

    The pumping and snappy attack aren't native to the amp, or at least I've yet to hear an amp react in that fashion in a raw recording, which indicates to me that there was more going on in post than simple EQ shaping. I also know that guys like Michael Wagener used to (and still does) mix two (or more) guitar tracks into a single channel using different mic positions and/or add an additional clean guitar to achieve an original tone for each channel. Contrary to my original opinion, after getting my hands dirty trying to deconstruct part of the recording, I think each channel was double tracked at the least. That said, it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that the added upper content were the product of an additional layer.

    I completely agree, it may be another track but given the clues on the playing it wouldn't have been a separate take. I lean more toward another mic involved, MAYBE explaining some of the elements in those upper registers. This is a classic example of why I proposed the incredibly important and valuable Dual Cab feature on the forum. Please go take a look at that. It would allow a sizable degree of tone shaping between cabs and mics (depending on how the profiler decided to configure things at the time of profiling). To me, if the KPA is going to be serious about recording applications it needs this kind of feature for those people who don't do their own profiling themselves. Even for those that do, it is still a valuable feature.

    That said, this "complex upper content" is not specific to the Dio track, you'll hear it on the Dokken track and many others. It is the area that is absolutely critical to have a real sounding amp for the 80's rock/metal tones. So we cannot discount it may still be a KPA limitation, we simply do not know as of yet.

    Quote from SonicExporer

    I completely agree, it may be another track, but I lean more toward another mic involved in those upper registers. This is a classic example of why I proposed the incredibly important and valuable Dual Cab feature on the forum. Please go take a look at that. It would allow a massive amount of tone shaping between cabs and mics (depending on how the profiler decided to configure things at the time of profiling).
    That said, this "complex upper content" is not specific to the Dio track, you'll hear it on the Dokken track and many others. It is the area that is absolutely critical to have a real sounding amp for the 80's rock/metal tones. So we cannot discount it may still be a KPA limitation, we simply do not know as of yet.

    I hear it on Mr. Scary, but that's another example of double (or triple+) tracking a single channel. I also hear it on one of the single tracked guitars in Mr. Scary but that track sounds a lot different than (not as ballsy as) the intro.

    @ColdFrixion ,

    The more you get used to identifying that tone-signature (and some of the lower end growl) the more you are going to appreciate what I've been saying about the real amp sounds.

    Contrary to what some people felt (maybe still feel?) I am not full of BS or hearing things. Nor did I ever set out to annoy anybody on the forum. :P

    Sonic

    @SonicExporer I actually just had a dream you profiled your amps and posted on this forum that the kemper sounds better than the amps.

    Woke up, run to open forum... bleh, nothing :D

    And on the quest continues..

    Quote from SonicExporer

    @ColdFrixion ,

    The more you get used to identifying that tone-signature (and some of the lower end growl) the more you are going to appreciate what I've been saying about the real amp sounds.

    Contrary to what some people felt (maybe still feel?) I am not full of BS or hearing things. Nor did I ever set out to annoy anybody on the forum. :P

    As mentioned, I hear it on some of the single tracked guitars, but knowing what I know about production techniques employed back in the day, I'm not as quick to conclude it's always an amp thing.

    Ha !!

    Yeah, to be honest if we can figure out how to get the KPA to reproduce the tones it probably WOULD sound better than the reference amps due to the additional tone-shaping flexibility. This is part of why I haven't given up yet, against my better judgement. :P

    Quote from SonicExporer

    Ha !!

    Yeah, to be honest if we can figure out how to get the KPA to reproduce the tones it probably WOULD sound better than the reference amps due to the additional tone-shaping flexibility. This is part of why I haven't given up yet, against my better judgement. :P

    Wouldn't it have been cheaper just to invest in a load box + IRs? It can certainly sound every bit as good as a real cab at full volume:

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    Quote from ColdFrixion

    As mentioned, I hear it on some of the single tracked guitars, but knowing what I know about production techniques employed back in the day, I'm not as quick to assume it's an amp thing.

    We are splitting hairs again here IMO. When I mentioned real amp sounds in the statement above that meant the sounds as captured on tape. There could be things in between, mics, cabs, pres, etc involved rather than the rig by itself so to speak.

    You may have missed an edit I made earlier, so I'll mention again: This whole convergence we are now at is just one reason the Dual Cab feature I proposed is so valuable for anybody wanting to do serious recording with the KPA IMO (and who does not do their own profiling - which is most people IMO).

    Yeah, a load-box/IR approach may have been better but it's a whole another path I'm not really familiar with so having to choose between technologies I thought the KPA was a better gamble. Frankly I'm not sold how the load/IR would even work because the amp is going to react different at different variable impedances/inductances and other factors that a load box cannot (to my knowledge) actually mimic. Even if the IR side replicates, it won't make up for the amps reaction to the load AFAIK. And where will this likely make the biggest difference..?..with cranked amp tones, once again I suspect.

    Edited 3 times, last by SonicExporer: Clarifcation (April 20, 2017 at 4:20 PM).

    Quote from SonicExporer

    Yeah, a load-box/IR approach may have been better but it's a whole another path I'm not really familiar with so having to choose between technologies I thought the KPA was a better gamble.

    For what you're wanting, I'd be apt to go the load box / IR route, and it would likely be less expensive. I like a ton of variety, but if you prefer a set of very specific tones and already have amps you know can produce them, the KPA may be overkill, that is if you're already having major issues finding a suitable profile. Further, there's probably less discrepancy between a load box + IR and an actual cab at full volume than the oft mentioned differences (shrillness, compression) of the KPA.

    Quote from tommyguitar

    Aren't you the same guy who wouldn't contact support because you didn't want to register your KPA?

    IIRC I was somebody who was holding off on registering right away because I wasn't sure what was up with my KPA, whether it needed to be returned to the dealer or not. But after figuring out a few of the issues I was encountering were "normal" (so to speak) I registered. Quite a while ago now.

    I'm not following what your question has to do with anything relevant or constructive.

    Edited once, last by SonicExporer (April 20, 2017 at 1:28 AM).

    I've suggested the torpedo way to sonic. Can verify you don't get the congestion/raspy issue there PLUS that cranking tube section is easier. Just do it as you would with a real cab and you are there. Kemper - - it may or may not profile the power amp tone well.

    But.. You do pay a price on versatility. You'll need a bunch of amps out there, maintenance... If he just wants this particular tone though it's not like he needs many amps (and he has the amps he needs anyway). He may not even loose money considering the torpedo being cheaper and his kemper as new.

    I would not keep the kemper if I just wanted one tone for the most part. My amps are simply superior for my taste. I will change that statement if something changes and my issues are sorted.

    PS: sonic, I wouldn't even reply to comments like that if I was you. It goes on for ever and ever.

    That said can only talk about congestion, raspiness and the Power stage issue where profiles are sometimes way off.

    It could be, however that there's some other issue with a load box such as the torpedo.. And then again you won't reach that particular tone you desire..

    If I profile amp through torpedo that's what I get though: the "kpa" tone, which is raspier, more congested, more compressed than real Amp.

    Now on the more positive side, about the kemper being able to Profile Power stage saturation... If I am able to profile an paper stage being driven to its total limits (success is rather inconsistent, not saying it is not) it should be easier to profile the tone described it seems to me.

    Less chance of. The kpa. Being confused. But then again we are at a stage where it's very difficult to find profiles that work.

    I am thinking you may be able to hire some commercial profiler to do a profile or for you suited to your specific demands. But what cost that would be I do not know.

    I will do my own profile the way you instructed and send you that too.