I love the cabs in Studio and Merged Profiles. I can see a use for IR's with Direct Amp Profiles though.
I am also interested to hear what the UA OX Box cab emulations sound like with a DAP loaded into my KPA.
Have to wait for late this year for that though.
Hi. I have a non-powered rack. I also have an Acurus A150 (solid state 150 wpc) power amp I'd like to use with my KPA. The amp has sucessfully driven Apogee ribbons which can present loads below 4 ohms. I would use it to power guitar cabs (4 / 8 ohms) with Direct Amp Profiles. Anyone here try this?
Steven
Frankly, I think you are asking the wrong device, (the KPA) to send the message to the Integra.
If you had any decent MIDI footswitch, you could send messages to both the KPA and the Integra to get them to the
parameter settings you want at the same time.
I have a very complex setup that includes analog and digital gear, all of which I can control with my RJM Mastermind GT.
For what you want to do, the MMGT is overkill. But most moderately priced ($250 to $400) MIDI footswitch controllers can send combination
messages with control change + MSB + LSB.
Check out the Keith McMillen Instruments Softstep, the Voodoo Lab Ground Control Pro, and the Source Audio Soleman for example.
People, DO NOT put a DI box between your amp and cab before checking it can handle the voltage.
You need to buy a DI box or dummy load that can handle the wattage which is a $200 investment by minimum. You can't use just any $10 di box off the shelf, it's likely you'll destroy the box and your amp. Most DI boxes have been built to handle signal levels (0.1V-1V), not 100W power amps. Want to be safe? Get a load box with line out, like a Hot Plate, and put that between your amp and cab.
Want to be 100% sure you have a DI that can do the job safely? Get the Kemper from the online store. BTW I think I paid around $130 for mine.
Woohoo! Just placed my order. Thanks, Hell-G.
Hi. I can't seem to find a link to purchase the Kemper DI on the website. Can anyone here provide a link, please?
Or do I have to contact Kemper support?
Thanks, Steven.
You can use the Behringer Ultramatch Pro format converter($199 retail) to get the job done. It will accept the 44.1 sample rate at the Kemper's S/PDIF output. You can then reclock the stream to any standard sample rate up to 96k.
Synch is achieved via wordclock or digital input. You can also convert between digital formats AES/EBU to S/PDIF (coax or optical) at 16, 20 and 24 bit word lengths.
Available for $199 at Sweetwater
Nice new features. I hope that the morphing feature will work with my RJM Mastermind GT10 switches and a Mission pedal connected to it.
I think some may be missing the point.
I use my VG-99 to do alternate tunings, which I fed to which I feed to the KPA. I do this with my analog setup as well.
The idea is to use the VG-99 for as little of the sound generation as possible. All amp, cab and effects sims are off on the VG-99. I just choose the guitar type and set the alternate tuning on the VG-99. As with every guitar/amp/effects chain, you have to expect to tweak to get the sound you want.
OK. I believe I may have gotten a handle on this.
Sambrox wrote:
Unfortunately, your original suspicion was correct. It WON'T capture the interaction between the amp and cab, which is one of the missing links in other load box applications, and is also the main selling point of FW3.0, DAP and Merged profiles.
Based on the following info, I confirmed that Sambrox was correct.
I reached out to Andy (sysexguy on Gearslutz), the North American Distributor for Two Notes. He kindly replied with the following:
Is the profiling the only application in which you would see a Reload in your set-up? If so, the load is very transparent however the amp's output transformer is not seeing the physical speaker in any way. In contrast, the Torpedo models with speaker emulation integrated have a "Thru" output jack that simply taps the speaker line and the amp is entirely seeing the speaker. In fact, in this mode, the loadbox impedance is ignored. It would be possible to pass a direct signal however the output passes through the Torpedo's digital converter.
There is one exception which is the early version of Studio, the VB-101. This unit has a thru which bypasses the loadbox and has a pre a/d direct output. Because the loadbox is bypassed, you can use any impedance as long as the amp and speaker are matched. This box is discontinued, we do have a demo and there are usually units on ebay and Reverb if that is of interest.
From the Profiling Manual (V3.0):
(Doing a DAP) requires you to tap the sound where it is about to hit the speaker cabinet. This tap is the speaker out-
put, where high voltage and high wattage occur, meaning you will need a dedicated DI box for this purpose.
This specialized DI box is capable of scaling down the voltage to a line-level signal, suitable for the Profiler, on a XLR
output jack. The high-power signal is forwarded to the speaker cabinet through a different output jack.
The actual hardware requirement to do a DAP is a splitter. with different power output on each side of the split. It must provide a line level signal on one side of the split. This side is used to feed the KPA's input. The load presented to the amp must be the same dynamic load created when connecting a cab directly to the amp. So the box must direct all of the power from the amp output except the split-off line level power to the speaker level side. The splitter should be as invisible as possible to the amp / speaker loading as possible.
Again, I quote the Profiling manual:
we recommend that you don’t use any kind of power-soaks or power-attenuators, either as a substitute for, or in addition to,
the DI box and true speaker. Those devices work mostly with simple resistors, which might inhibit the desired impedance interactions, thereby
resulting in an inauthentic profile.
There is a direct implication in the above recommendation from Kemper. Inserting any load box into
the equation, whether it is resistive or reactive, will by definition alter the interaction between amp and speaker.
Therefore, to capture a DAP of a tube amp running with the volume set high, it is going to be as loud as if you were
creating a standard profile.
The terminology confusion in the profiling Manual is somewhat understandable. The term D.I. is somewhat context dependent.
My Radial JDV is referred to as a D.I. by Radial. It also splits the signal, with differing levels on each side of the split. However, it's mic level side is actually meant to be connected to either a mic input on a console or recording interface. The other side of the split goes to the guitar amp input. That side of the split is meant to maintain the guitar level Hi-Z output from a guitar's pickups. As it turns out, it too is actually a splitter.
So, for doing DAP and Merged profiles, I give up. I will contact Kemper support and order one of their "specialized D.I." boxes.
I think I may have the answer to my above post's query. If I am correct, the Reload will work fine with DAP.
The speaker connection is only required to make the amp react to it in a normal way. There is nothing at all in a DAP capture that involves the speaker. It is capturing only an amp which is behaving as if it were connected to a cab.
Anyone care to comment and/or correct me?
I re-read this entire thread. I also read the latest version (3.0) of the profiling guide. There is still little information there on the technical requirements of the DI required to make Direct Amp Profiles.
I am considering the Two Notes Torpedo Reload for my studio. It could replace my Radial JDV and X-Amp. I have seen Pete Thorn's video on it and it seems to be a really good solution for re-amping. I like the Match feature that gets the live guitar input level equal to the recorded track you want to re-amp. And the DI quality is top notch.
The free Wall Of Sound plugin that comes with the Reload can also be used to add cab IRs with the KPA. That's a nice bonus.
With it's ability to do reactive load attenuation at 4, 8, or 16 ohms, Reload is a no-brainer for me.
I am also hoping it can be a good load box for Direct Amp profiling. In an earlier post in this thread, Toneclone said that," ... the results are awesome so far". That is encouraging. I have also seen a few others with Torpedo Live models say they do the job. They use the same load box technology.
CK indicated a "dummy load" box could not be used to create an accurate Direct Profile. The poweramp signal must pass through the chosen DI box to a speaker load to enable the KPA to create a Direct Profile.
Given that the Reload has a through connection for a speaker, on its face, it should work just fine. However, I wonder if the amp / cab interaction might be cut when using the Reload's Load Box output. Having read the Reload owner's manual, it indicates that it makes no difference to operation of the Reload whether you connect or do not connect a speaker. This directly implies that there is no interaction between the amp and speaker when Reload is connected between them.
So I fear that this amp / speaker interaction would be lost when creating a DAP. Anyone here have any thoughts on this?
I may need to spend more to get the Kemper DI. Bummer.
Thanks Sam. I am waiting for FW 3.0.
Steven.
I'm also interested in creating a quality acoustic guitar emulation for the KPA.
I own a Fishman Aura Spectrum pedal. I also own Logic Pro, which has an input response utility that can be used to create IR's.
If I understand how this works I must follow these steps to get a good acoustic guitar emulation on the KPA:
1. create an IR of the Aura with Logic's utility. Save the IR as a .wav file.
2. import and convert it with Cabmaker 2
3. Select a clean amp profile
Will this work, or am I missing something?
Also, while I plan to start with free cab IRs on the web, I'm interested in some of the Fractal Cab Packs.
you'll have to convert the IR with Cabmaker 2.0 first
Are the Fractal packs directly convertible via Cab Maker 2? I read the manual for CM V1.010. It says the IR must be in .wav format.
Scratch17
Pilotltd quoted the Mesa CabClone manual as saying:
it's acceptable to use a lesser impedance. eg the 16 ohm version is OK at 16 or 8 ohms, the 8 ohm version at 8 or 4 ohms. Not the other way though!
It may be "acceptable" from a "you won't blow anything up" standpoint. It doesn't necessarily mean you will get a good profile if you cut this corner.
Consider that if it doesn't change the interaction between the amp and cabinet, why not just make one Cabclone with 16 or 8 ohm specs, and a second with 8 or 4 ohm specs. Why bother making a 4 ohm unit? Somehow, it seems that there must be a difference. Or is the end user supposed to expect that using a 16 ohm Cabclone with an 8 ohm cab will give the exact same result as using an 8 ohm Cabclone with an 8 ohm cabinet?
My Mesa 20/20 amp comes with outputs for all three standard nominal impedance specs. I know that I can plug a 4 ohm cab into an 8 ohm output. It will not sound the same as using the 4 ohm output with the 4 ohm cab.
If I'm going to the trouble of doing Direct Amp profiling, I don't want to chance altering the result by cutting corners. I'm no expert. This is just my take on the subject of this form of profiling.
Scratch17
After reading as much as I've been able to find online in this forum, as well as from Kemper's press releases, I think that the following sums up what will be needed in a DI box to do Direct Amp profiling.
For a DI box to work in creating a Direct Amp profile it must:
It is the first and third requirements that seem to have some potential variables associated with them.
The first requirement involves how much power the DI box can accept at its input. I've seen that some manufacturers sell DI boxes with differing power input ranges. So, for example, the same DI can be ordered with acceptable input levels of 1 to 50 watts, or alternatively 51 to 100 watts.
The third requirement is splitting the signal. The through to the speaker side requires a specific nominal expected speaker load. I've not seen a DI box made for this application that can vary the load to match that of the connected speaker.
So, for example, the Mesa CabClone meets the above requirements. It can handle power amps up to 150 watts. That takes care of a wide range of requirement one's variation. However, it comes in three models, 4 , 8, and 16 ohm. So to do Direct Amp profiles of amps with multiple cabs of differing nominal resistances you'd need to buy three of them. That's an extra $900. Ouch!
Scratch17
paults wrote:
One clarification - the JDX is the right TYPE of direct box (it accepts amplifier level signals), but it is not a good choice for Profiling. It has a Speaker Simulator EQ on tXLR output
I missed this very important fact about the JDX. I stand corrected. It is not the device we need for Direct Amp Profiling. Thanks for catching this. You saved me $200 on gear I can't use and don't need.
Thanks for the welcomes! I bought my KPA in the summer and haven't been able to use it much. I'm moving in the next two or three months, so I'm covered up in preparation to sell my house and buy another.
I have a small guitar oriented Project Studio that is a long term hobby. The KPA is a dream come true for me. I love being able to try (virtual) amps I've dreamed of owning.
There are two types of Direct Input boxes. One is designed to accept a guitar's output to a console. The other is designed to take a tube amp's speaker level output and send it to a console.
An example of the first kind of DI is the Radial JDV.
I'm old school, with an analog heritage. I always use a DI box when recording an analog amp. I never know if I want to re-amp later on. So I always connect my guitar to my JDV in the signal path before my KPA and analog rig. I use the JDV for a few reasons.
If you are planning on doing a Direct Amp Profile, you will need a different kind of DI box. As Don Petersen wrote, you need a "DI box that can work with speaker levels ". A Radial JDX will fit that bill. It is an example of the second type of DI box. It is designed to take a speaker output from your tube amp, and split the signal. One side goes to a guitar speaker cab. Think of it as a "thru" bus for speakers. The other side of the split signal is output at microphone level. It provides the equivalent of a mic'd up guitar cabinet's microphone output to the KPA, so it can create a Direct Amp Profile.
If you don't plan on creating any Direct Amp Profiles, you can avoid this additional purchase. And you can re-amp with the KPA, so you don't have to buy a guitar level DI. Just plug your guitar into the KPA and go wild.
Check out the Radial JDX. It is made specifically to take input from a tube head, combo or power amp's speaker outs,. It splits the signal, passing the powered side to a guitar cab and the other side is meant to go to a console (DI) on an XLR at microphone level.
It exactly fits the bill for a DI box that can do Direct Amp Profiles. If you think about it, it has all of the requirements.
I have a Radial JDV, which I love and highly recomend. It's meant to be a DI box that splits the guitar's output so you can send a non-compensated dry signal to your console. It has two outputs that incorporate what Radial calls "drag". The drag control adjusts the load before the signal goes to the outputs on the box, which feed your amp. There's also a -30db pad, so you can insert your JDV after it exits your cab.
It is important to note that Radial says you will damage your JDV if you insert it into the amp's speaker output path. So I can't use it to do Direct Amp Profiles. So I'll buy a JDX.
I suspect many technically savvy users here are missing the fine distinction as to what type of DI box they need to do Direct Amp Profiles. I know it took me a while to understand the hardware requirements of the DI box to do this profiling method.
Scratch17
