Quote from Burkhard

Since I didn't find any concrete quote referenced in your messages, I scanned the following pages in the KEMPER Kone chapter and found this related to Aux In:

·       A signal on the Aux Input fed to the MONITOR OUTPUT by using the “Aux In >Monitor” control will be processed by the KEMPER Kone intelligence as well. It will always be processed in full-range mode, even if you play your Rigs in Speaker Imprint mode (Monitor Cab Off active).

·       Use two cabinets equipped with KEMPER Kones as a mini PA, maybe for a spontaneous party. Feed your music into the Aux Input in stereo, as classic PROFILER models activate Monitor Stereo, use a stereo power amp into the cabinets. Only the guitar-speaker-like dispersion will make your cabinets sound different to a regular PA.

Even if you ignore the whole context and earlier passages of that chapter, I think, it's clear, there is always a PROFILER involved.

Electrically you could feed any line level signal into the KEMPER Power Kabinet and it might produce results like comparable full-range cabinets, but it only lives up to its full capacities if fed with the intelligence of the PROFILER. And that is the exclusive way we promote it.

The second paragraph there is what I'm quoted exactly. And the first sentence refers to two kabinets. The second sentence then talks about feeding into the aux input. If you don't see that it could be confusing to someone that the aux input referred to in that paragraph is in the kemper, that's all good with me, I'm not trying to change your marketing/info materials - so not sure what the purpose is here if you disagree. If you don't mind that a dozen or so guitarists/engineers read it the same way, it's ok with me.

Re: your last paragraph, I'm not sure what living up to its full capabilities means exactly, but the very thing you mentioned there about feeding that line signal in and it maybe performing as a FRFR is EXACTLY what i was hoping to see/hear feedback in this thread! Still crossing my fingers someone is out there who wants to tell us about this...

Quote from Burkhard

From the manual:

KEMPER Kone

As you have read in the chapter The Sound of Guitar Cabinets versus Mic'ed Speakers, the PROFILER can run linear speakers for monitor purposes, as well as traditional guitar cabinets. However, our company also provides a specialized speaker solution for the ultimate in sonic variety: the KEMPER Kone™ is a speaker that allows for a linear reproduction of your Rigs, as well as mimicking several classic guitar speakers.

The KEMPER Kone is available in three form factors:

·       Built into a KEMPER Power Kabinet, it’s the perfect companion for unpowered PROFILER models Stage, Head, and Rack, but could also be used with PowerHead and PowerRack. With two Power Kabinets, you can enjoy stereo sound with any PROFILER model.

·       The unpowered KEMPER Kabinet is the perfect match for PowerHead and PowerRack models with its built-in power amplifier.

·       KEMPER Kone chassis are also available as a replacement speaker-fitting in any 1x12, 2x12 or 4x12 cabinet designed for 12-inch speakers, either open or closed. You can drive these unpowered cabinets via the SPEAKER OUTPUT of a PowerHead or PowerRack. Alternatively, you can attach an external solid-state power amplifier to the MONITOR OUTPUT of your unpowered PROFILER Stage, Head, or Rack.

The choice is yours!

KEMPER Kone Mode

¨   KEMPER Kone

The KEMPER Kone is fully controlled by the software of your PROFILER. Please activate its “intelligence”, navigate to the “KEMPER Kone” page in the Output Section and press the soft button labeled “KEMPER Kone”.

You will find three familiar parameters that we have mirrored on the KEMPER Kone page for your convenience: Monitor Volume, Monitor Stereo and Monitor Cab Off. When Monitor Cab Off is not highlighted, the KEMPER Kone works in full-range mode.

¨   Bass Boost

The KEMPER Kone has been designed to have a perfect tone when the cabinet sits on the floor. Whenever you lift a cabinet into free space, it will lose a certain amount of the bass fundamental, as the mirroring of the floor will attenuate it. This effect can be compensated by pressing “Bass Boost”, which adds 3 dB to the low frequencies.

¨   Sweetening

The full-range mode of the KEMPER Kone is extremely linear — for some of us, it might even be too linear. The high-quality monitors/PA speakers used with digital guitar amps will often emphasize the low and high frequencies — this makes the sound more appealing and allows for an increase in volume level without causing ear fatigue. The "Sweetening” parameter allows continuous control over the level of this emphasis. At full left position, there is no emphasis at all. At full right, the low and high frequencies will be emphasized by 6 dB, while the overall volume stays roughly the same.

etc.

Let us know, if you find a location, where we unintendedly promote the KEMPER Kone or KEMPER Kabinet standalone and without PROFILER attached.

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I've already quoted the manual where it is somewhat mislreading in my opinion - it's on the next page or the page after what you quoted where it talks about using the Aux - I've directly quoted it in a post earlier in this thread - so scroll up and you'll find it. You've strawmanned my point a little bit as it makes no comment on whether you can use it or not without the Kemper, but makes a comment about using music through the aux input and being able to have that as FRFR (as I've pointed out, I don't have a kabinet and didn't realize until pointed out there is no aux input on it and that the aux input referenced which I quoted is the Kemper's aux). If you don't see that it's a bit confusing, that's cool with me - but I'm not the only one who read it and didn't think that the FRFR mode was basically an imprint vs. a default state that the Aux input could use (I asked all the guitar players I know well here in LA and they thought it indicated the same).

Quote from V8guitar

Please take this in the spirit its meant but that is why I asked the why....it's always better to start with the problem/requirement than the solution.

On this forum, you never know what people already know. In this case your request was flawed because of not knowing how the kone worked. In other words, it's not logical to want to play through the Kabinet without the Kemper because it's designed to work with it, even as an FRFR. If you didn't know that then it could seem logical..

Anyway, I hope you have the answer now as we've done this to death a bit

Your second point is correct. But I would suggest that the manual does not make this point clear and judging by everyone's posts here aside from support, that fact was unknown to many. Also, the wording in the manual and marketing material makes what I suggested sound possible...this forum is full of strange attitudes though so I guess everyone is about to claim they understood the kabinet is not frfr at all and can only act that way if the kemper is making it so.

As a professional problem solver, I might surprise you to say that I wouldn't agree with your first point actually (at least in real life, maybe in guitar world that's the right way though).

Quote from Ruefus

Of course you do.

Thanks for your valuable contribution, happy holidays

Quote from V8guitar

I think where the use case seems a bit odd to me is amp sims obviously are a full range simulation and so best suited to FRFR or studio monitors which are full range speakers.

If I understand correctly what you describe is the "amp in the room sound" that is missing from the Sims via a DAW? That now makes sense to me in what you are potentially asking and there is a bit of holy grail in this - how do you get that on stage feel in a studio, usually at lower volume using FRFR type solutions.

If I am correct, then you are right in that the purpose of the Kabinet was to try and achieve that (I think successfully). Unfortunately, the answer is still the same which the "magic" from the Kabinet is actually in the KPA, not the Kone. So it's very unlikely to achieve what you need - in fact logic would suggest it would be worse as its further removed from a guitar speaker and closer to a HiFi speaker.

The alternatives I was referencing is more along the lines of more guitar focussed FRFR solutions e.g. headrush and other options in a similar vein.

Hopefully that helps ?

Yeah, you're not wrong. I think I was just trying to suggest that from a different perspective, this is pretty logical - as logical as a kemper player wanting to play through the kabinet, that's all!

Quote from V8guitar

The reason I and many others responded that way is very simple. The Kabinet is not an FRFR speaker. That is clear from the marketing, spec's etc. Yes it can operate as an FRFR but that's not its primary purpose and as mentioned it needs to KPA to function that way.

It is designed to act in conjunction with the KPA as a solution to the Amp in the room. This use case is both not what it was ever envisaged for and (this is the crucial bit for me) there are solutions out there more appropriate (and probably cheaper). If using a DAW, most people use and are happy with studio monitors - hence the "why" question. What else are you trying to achieve by this approach?

Hence why don't be surprised why few people will have tried this...anyway, I hope you get your answer.

Well, I see what you're saying but I don't think there are solutions more appropriate (don't care about the money aspect of it) - there are options but I think the FRFR commercial range is really limited having tried out most of them (ignoring studio monitors which is a different class approach to listening to amp sims which everyone already uses).

I think what I'm trying to achieve is sort of the same thing that compels people in live settings to have cabinet monitors at all when the signal is going to the audience via PA, and IEM are obviously better for hearing what's going on on stage (with not only the guitar but others) - there's actually no logical point to having cab monitors but many people like them.

So although that's not my use case, that's basically the idea - I'd like to play through cabs, I mean why not? I'm indifferent if the source comes from a kemper or an amp sim after I hit a string. It's basically another way to hear a guitar sound - I might ask the same question of others who use the kabinet with a kemper - why not just use studio monitors (through spidif into the audio interface) - i mean i did it for years and it sounds great if you have expensive monitors. I'm sure tons of people on here would respond that they love the sound of air and the amp in the room etc etc. So the question is can the kabinet be used as a FRFR speaker for cab sims seemed like a fair point because cab sims = kemper to those with blind folds on and ignoring the debate of which is easier to play with (physical switches vs digital fiddling).

Anyway, I don't need an answer if nobody has one, I guess I find it really strange why people without anything to add on the subject jump on the thread and sound like 12 year olds (not meaning you) - i hope they find happier lives. There are a few polite ppl on here though, like yourself and BayouTexan and kempersupport....

Quote from Ruefus

Of course you do.

Another great contribution on this thread ruefus - i hope you're this way in real life and wish you more happiness than you have.

Quote from vjelen

So the main point of this thread is, that you didn't know that "Kabinet doesn't have aux input" That's quite curious, because it is so obvious just with quick look at the product itself or pictures of it available on the web. Instead of such "few second look" there is huge thread with many complaints, blaming .... I quit!

Amazing valuable insight, thanks for your contribution

Quote from Kemper Support #1

The Kone has been specially developed for using it with our imprint technology. Think of the FRFR mode as one of the imprints. One that mimics the sound of an FRFR speaker.

Thanks. that makes sense based on your previous post about it. Btw, that is not at all what I thought from the marketing material.

Quote from BayouTexan

Chances are; no one has tried what you originally suggested, someone has tried it but does not read the forums to reply, someone has tried it but doesn't want to comment about it.

Choices are; use the Kabinet the way you want, or wait for someone to respond who has done what you would like to do.

I think everyone including myself was focused on "why" you want to do it when the first option the Kabinet was designed for works the best for us.

Cheers!

I think you're mostly right. I guess to me it's non-productive to fill up the thread with most of the stuff posted above and I'm not sure why who are not the target of this feel the need to write stuff that clearly isn't helpful. It's really not personal when

The "why" because the kemper competes with amp sims - they both take a DI and make it sound good (i'm sure everyone here will argue that the kemper does this better but that's not the point) - and if the kabinet was able to act like a good frfr that. was optimized for guitar tones, and if it also had a way to take those guitar tones in (with an aux input which was not clear does not exist until the kemper person replied on here) then theoretically it would be a very interesting monitor speaker for guitars (in addition to what it does for the kemper). I like playing guitar and engineering/producing music - it doesn't really matter to me what happens to the tone after i hit strings on an instrument as long as it sounds good (ie. playing through an amp, playing through kemper, playing through amp sims etc) and 99% of the recording musicians I know feel the same way - so I'm curious if the kabinet also acted in the the same way (ie doesn't care where the good sounding guitar tone comes from) - because if it did, i'd probably get some.

Like I said earlier, if the above thought process isn't obvious, then you likely aren't the type of person who would try it, but every single guitarist I've asked about this in LA has basically said "hmmm, yeah, i don't know, but i wonder" so I really don't understand the people who have jumped on the thread to act like it's a crazy idea to use the kabinet as a FRFR guitar speaker without a kemper (if this would be possible).

I thought my first post said it all:

"Hello everyone. If you read the Kabinet materials and manual, it basically says the Kone shouldn't be used without a profiler, which makes sense - but I have yet to see someone who has used a powered Kabinet with the output of their daw (for example using amp sims) just as a FRFR speaker (in the mode without the speaker imprint) - this should be possible with the Aux input into the Kabinet. Has anyone tried this, or has anyone seen a review or feedback of this anywhere?

Really curious how the kabinet performs as a FRFR speaker for other amps sims as well so anyone with personal experience on this with feedback would be appreciated!

Quote from Ruefus

You're quite rude and flippant to people trying to help. Why are you being such a jerk?

Return and Alternative Input (p42)

Auxiliary Input (p124)

Those two pages should explain how the Aux in works on the KPA.

I disagree - I actually think others have been rude here and I am direct about it which you call flippant. And now call me a jerk when I haven't personally attacked anyone. It's projection to call me a name in the same breath of calling me rude, but i hope you feel empowered now that you typed it out. I wonder why anyone comments when they actually don't have any data to add on the subject?

I've ready the whole manual btw dude, i had a kemper for a while and completely the aux in the kemper - but the manual and marketing documentation on the kabinet (the subject of this thread btw) is limited and didn't delineate that it was referring to the kemper aux and not an aux input in the kabinet itself which i have just learned does not actually exist (you can see that in my earlier comment).

Quote from Kemper Support #1

The Kone speaker needs a Kemper Profiler to mimic the sound of an FRFR speaker. Without a Profiler it will sound like a broadband speaker.

This is also true for the Kabinet because it uses a Kone speaker.

If you do not have a Profiler it is pointless to use a Kabinet unless you happen to like the sound of a broadband speaker.

I guess what creates the confusion is that I refer to Aux in as the Aux input of the Profiler while you seem to refer to something else.

Ok, this is a point that I think is not clear after reading the manual.

You seem to be saying the default state is not FRFR but that is another "model" the kemper puts onto the kabinet. If I have that right, that is really surprising and then it seems that the kones are very very different than the Celestion F12-X200.

Re; the Aux - I didn't realize you and the manual were describing the Aux input in the kemper. Now that I've taken a quick look at the back of the Kabinet, there is no Aux input!

I think this line in the manual doesn't help "Use two cabinets equipped with Kemper Kones as a mini PA, maybe for a spontaneous party. Feed your music into the Aux input in stereo...."

When I read that I thought there was an aux input that basically took things as FRFR, but from your posts (the only helpful posts in this entire thread) it sounds like the Kabinet can't do that at all, it can just handle kemper aux input and model that as FRFR. If I got that right, that's too bad - seems limiting.

Hopefully the future responses in this thread are from people who have some personal experience with this topic - not sure why ppl respond when they have nothing to add.

Quote from Burkhard

KEMPER promotes KEMPER Kone (and Kabinet) only in combination with a PROFILER. Only then it lives up to its full sound capacities.

This applies to all kind of signals including playalong music via Aux In.

That is clear with the manual. What is not clear is how does it sound in the situation in the original post.

Quote from vjelen

The best would be, if you read carefully (again?) Main Manual 8.5, page 95, chapter KEMPER Kone. If you use it in different setup than recommended it will sound somehow, but nobody can tell you in advance how. You have to try it, maybe you will like it, maybe not. Who knows.

Yes I've read the manual - your question of who knows, is exactly the whole purpose of my thread. I'm sure somebody does and it would be great to hear from them.

Quote from Kemper Support #1

the Kone is not an FRFR speaker but a broadband speaker. The Kone technology in the Profiler turns it into an FRFR speaker for the Aux in or if "Monitor cab off" is not activated. If you want to have an FRFR monitor for your amp sims but have no Profiler you should buy a real FRFR monitor/speaker.

Are you saying the kabinet cannot be used through the aux input as frfr speaker without a kemper? I appreciate your response - but I'm trying to clarify your second sentence. You're talking about the kone speaker, and I'm asking about the kabinet product (which has kones in it).

FYI - I'm not looking for advice about frfr speakrs (i've had several before) and what sounds good etc - but specifically the use case i asked about with the kabinet.

Quote from Ruefus

As has been said - mixed results at best.

The Kone exists primarily for one reason - to give the player the amp-in-the-room sound that is lost when using cabinets captured as Impulse Responses, or as part of the Profiling process. IRs and Cab Profiles are colored by the microphone(s) used to capture them. All FRFR solutions provide a mic'd cabinet sound. The Kone imprints do not.

The Kone is not at all like traditional FRFR speakers. That's not its purpose. It's not designed or intended to play recorded music or play well with other digital amplifiers. If it happens to work well, that's luck.

It's a monitoring speaker first. If it works another way....that's a bonus.

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I understand your points. I guess I'm just wondering where the feedback is of anyone who's actually done this - forget the theory, the kone is supposed to be relatively flat and comparable to the other flat celestion speaker (i hear you, it is different so it can use the dsp imprints) but think about the kabinet acting as a frfr speaker which it is supposed to be able to do. Again, I look forward to someone who has actually tested this - I wish I could, every guitar player I've asked in LA has said the same thing: "hmmm, no, but that sounds cool, lmk if you find anyone who's tested it".

Quote from V8guitar

Has anyone tested to see how the Kabinet performs underwater in a plastic bag , in FRFR mode using a pioneer hifi amp, linked to a helix, whilst playing a trombone?

Sorry for the sarcasm, but why would anyone try what you are asking? Not clear what you are trying to achieve or do and therefore why you are trying to understand what happens when using something it's not designed for...the answer is pretty simple...unpredictable because it's not for that.

Of course we find things out through experimentation, but it usually has a purpose.

The Kabinet has no intelligence built in...it's an amp and speaker. The speaker is created with the Kone software in mind. As an FRFR speaker I think its OK but not great, its power is from the imprints.

So, it might sound OK or terrible, unlikely to sound great.

Are you looking for new sounds or do you have a particular reason or are you asking the same question as others have - how do I get the imprints to work with other units??

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This is a really weird response. If it is not intuitively clear one would be curious if the kabinet could perform as a frfr speaker for amp sims without a kemper in the mix using the aux out, then you haven't spent any time in a studio with real musicians sitting around lately.

During the five years I had a kemper, I was curious about how the kemper performed vs. amp sims (which have come a long way in that time). It would be dead simple to test this, but i no longer have a kemper atm - but i am curious if the kabinet can do this and how it performs as frfr for amp sims (you misread my original post as I do NOT want to use the imprints with other units at all (sorry for the all caps, i am not yelling but it seems like you might misread this again so i am emphasizing it). What I want to do is hear feedback on if the kabinet has been used as an FRFR speaker (ie theoretically neutral) with NO imprints and NO kemper as technically it should be able to do this with it's aux input -- and all you have to do is think about that for one second and the next obvious thought would be "What sounds should i test in such a setting? Oh yeah, guitar sounds ie an amp sim like pretty much half of hi gain recordings in 2022".

Not controversial - not deserving of sarcasm - not sure why you respond when you have nothing to add, nothing personal but it's really odd. I look forward to valuable feedback from others who are also curious and have done this test. If it sounds pretty good, I might be a couple powered kabinets and run them as a third stereo monitors out of our audio interfaces.

Quote from Wheresthedug

Bear in mind that the driver in the Kabinet isn’t a typical flat response speaker. It relies on the Kone DSP in the Profiler to apply an EQ correction to make it flat. Most FRFR cabinet rely on DSP to get their flat response but most have this in the cabinet itself.

I'm curious to hear more about this - isn't the kone supposed to be flat and the DSP in the profiler just supposed to emulate speaker types?

Quote from Kemper Support #1

the Aux in signal will be send to the Kabinet in FRFR mode when the Kone function is activated

Are you saying the aux signal will not be sent/heard by the kabinet unless there is a kemper attached and the kone function is activated?

Quote from BayouTexan

The output of a DAW goes to your Interface and then to the Main/Line Outs of the Interface which usually go to (powered) studio monitors (which are FRFR). I suppose you could hook up a powered Kab the same as a studio monitor.

Yeah, that's the theory - the post is about asking if anyone has any feedback of having done this.