Best practices for Refining Profiles (in context of merged profiles)

You should profile it with the guitar the amp is set up for and write what you used in the notes (guitar type and pickup). If you want to use a strat and an LP then make two separate profiles, and a third profile for a third guitar, etc.

Is there any point to refining a profile with several guitars?

Quote from tnipe

Is there any point to refining a profile with several guitars?

No. The refining process does not need that additional data. You can make one profile to work for different guitars by doing a Liquid Profile.

I've profiled dozens of amps (always DI/Merged) and the refining process makes a HUGE difference in the final result.

In general, I've been getting my best results using a WAV file that ToneX uses in its capturing process. I believe that the reason it works as well as it does is the fact that there are a variety of guitars and some have extended low range.

That being said, a handful of amps, once initially profiled, will get worse and worse with continued refining. Amps with extreme high gain, extreme high end, or old school 4 hole Marshalls at high gain (power amp AND preamp gain) don't always get better and sometimes get much worse.

It's always been my biggest disappointment with the Kemper, that amps like that, which can't easily be used live, can't be profiled reliably.

“strong big and dissonant chords throughout the fretboard give the algorithm the most info to work with” - this is an interesting idea I hadn’t heard before.

When refining a profile I tend to just hit a few power chords (i.e. root and fifth, with notes sometimes doubled at octave or in unison). I tend to hit them hard, because my understanding is that the Kemper wants to figure out how the transient peaks of initial pick attack sound.

I’ve never thought of the refining process as one where the Kemper wants to hear chords with dissonant intervals. But maybe that’s true? As we all know, root/5th produces distortion tones with strong harmonic overtones that kind of “line up”, whereas intervals like, say, 3rds or 6ths can “warble”, and a minor 2nd especially so.

So when refining a profile, do we need to ideally give the Kemper dissonant chords, to help with the character of the distortion?

Or is it only about pick attack transients?

Can anyone throw light on this? Cheers.

I guess not?

Quote from BadBadger

I guess not?

This is a really important part of the process, but it seems like Kemper, as a whole, does not want to talk about it in detail. May give up its secrets?

My only thought is that a Kemper will put out a certain level of signal when profiling. That wont match your guitars output exactly. So your actual guitar playing lets them calibrate the gain level better to match the actual guitar.

I have done weird things like alter the volume, play harmonics, palm mutes etc during the refine and got differing results. sometime very bizarre results

Quote from amalgamaudio

I've read that a strat (due to its broad frequency bandwidth) would be a good choice and that strong big and dissonant chords throughout the fretboard give the algorithm the most info to work with.

As an aside: when I was in college I did a harmonic analysis of a Fender Strat's direct output vs. a Gibson 335 for a sound physics class. I found that the Strat's upper harmonic content dropped off much lower than the 335. I thought was interesting since the Strat was perceived as a much brighter tone, but in terms of a broader frequency bandwidth that wasn't really the case.

Hi everyone, I’ve recently started profiling my amplifiers and would like to share my experience with you. I hope it can be helpful to others who are just starting out.

I started doing profiles about 5 months ago, initially only DI profiles. In the refining process, I did some experiments and came to some conclusions.

1. I did not get good results using the .wav file from ToneX. The sound always ends up with less definition at the end of the process. The profiles were better before refining with this file.
2. I performed multiple refinements on the same profile, playing various techniques (palm muting, harmonics, open chords, etc.), for about 3 to 4 minutes, and the sound was always very different from the reference amp in the end.
3. I performed the refinements quickly (about 20 seconds) by playing several chords with more energetic strummings, as instructed by the manual. This is where I got the best results.

In summary, follow the manual instructions without trying to improvise. That's when I got the best results.

Quote from Mike Nuclear

Hi everyone, I’ve recently started profiling my amplifiers and would like to share my experience with you. I hope it can be helpful to others who are just starting out.

I started doing profiles about 5 months ago, initially only DI profiles. In the refining process, I did some experiments and came to some conclusions.

1. I did not get good results using the .wav file from ToneX. The sound always ends up with less definition at the end of the process. The profiles were better before refining with this file.
2. I performed multiple refinements on the same profile, playing various techniques (palm muting, harmonics, open chords, etc.), for about 3 to 4 minutes, and the sound was always very different from the reference amp in the end.
3. I performed the refinements quickly (about 20 seconds) by playing several chords with more energetic strummings, as instructed by the manual. This is where I got the best results.

In summary, follow the manual instructions without trying to improvise. That's when I got the best results.

This was also my experience with either high gain amps, or amps with a LOT of high end content (Matchless Chieftain with the Brilliance knob up, or a Honey Bee or Two Rock amp set for "stun" with really high presence and treble.)

This process does, however, work very well on middle-of-the-road amps at decent levels of gain, but not what I would consider high gain like an EVH or 5150. On clean amps it's overkill, but works well.

Quote from gtrgriff3

This was also my experience with either high gain amps, or amps with a LOT of high end content (Matchless Chieftain with the Brilliance knob up, or a Honey Bee or Two Rock amp set for "stun" with really high presence and treble.)

This process does, however, work very well on middle-of-the-road amps at decent levels of gain, but not what I would consider high gain like an EVH or 5150. On clean amps it's overkill, but works well.

I recently encountered similar issues when profiling DI signal from boutique Plexi-style amps with the bright cap engaged. When the gain was set above 5 or 6, the DI profiles turned out fine. However, when trying to capture cleaner tones with the gain between 3 and 4, the result had excessively high gain and volume compared to the reference amp. Disabling the bright cap made the clean DI profiles sound identical to the original amp.

Higher gain captures worked because, as gain increases, the bright cap's influence diminishes, which is why the high-gain DI profiles came out as expected.

I also recently made DI profiles of the Zvex Nano Head (its high-gain rigs are available on the Rig Exchange) and faced the same issue with clean tones and the bright cap engaged. I wonder if this bright cap issue is unique to my experience or a known limitation in the Kemper profiling process when handling excessive top-end content.