[Public Beta] PROFILER OS 8.0.0.21450

musicmad · October 25, 2020 at 1:23 PM

Quote from semguigui

Hi all,
I've notice a little bug in the beta, well reproducible on my kemper at startup :
-switch ON the profiler in browser mode, so that it recalls the last loaded profile which must have the kemper drive active. (in my case it's with the 808 mid preset)
-press-long the slot button where the KD is, to display the edition page (slot B in my case)
-turn the "type" knob to display the page with the "catergory", "type", and "preset" columns
-normally the last column ("preset") isn't well initialized (it's on a WVOW preset instead of the 808mid, so that if you attempt any preset change, the slot turns into a VWOW effect)
It seems that it's the case only at the startup until you access the menu and retreive the right settings once, then everything seems to work the correct way.

Display More

It's a known issue - but not a priority to fix because it only happens once a day. I beg to differ though and think it's highly annoying to deal with every time you power up the profiler. The workaround is to click arrow down followed by arrow up. Then you seem to be in the right spot.

lightbox · October 25, 2020 at 2:44 PM

One more run regarding my Ceriatone Centura, this time with another amp. First the details:

Marshall Silver Jubilee JCM 25/50 Model 2555

Lead Channel OFF
Presence: 10
Bass: 9

Middle: 0

Treble: 10

Output Master: 10

Input Gain: 7

Profiled with Tube Thomsen 4x12 cab with (british) Celestion V30s using Shure SM57 & Beyerdynamic M160

Resulting Profile:

Amp Gain: 3.0

The amp is setup to be pretty clean, just barely at the edge of breakup.

Now the Ceriatone Centura joins the game. I have it setup like this:

Red Lines:

Gain: 1 o'clock

Treble: noon

Output: 1 o'clock

Result: Quite crunchy sound, not as dynamic as the JCM 800 Bass Series I had used before, doesn't clean up as easy with lighter picking.

And finally we look at how to replicate that sound with the Kemper Drive:

Dark green lines:

Drive: 4.0

Tone: 5.0

Definition: 5.2

Slim Down: 0.0

Volume: 0.0

Light green lines:

Drive: 4.0

Tone: 5.0

Definition: 5.2

Slim Down: 0.0

Volume: 5.0

Frequency Response Graph:

Distortion Graph:

As you can easily see (and I can easily hear), again the Kemper Drive's Volume makes the difference, significantly. I don't know why the Volume isn't taken into account in any of the Kemper Drive presets. The Full OC presets make use of it. None of the Klon presets makes any sense (to me) and I'm baffled as to how this can be called "sweet spots". I don't have any of the other overdrive pedals emulated in presets, so I can't compare them. But I highly doubt they get close to what their real counterparts are typically used for!?

My personal bottomline:

Kemper Drive CAN be really great but the provided presets don't do their real counterparts justice, sorry.

paults · October 25, 2020 at 3:41 PM

Hearing a difference between a model designed to sound like one example of a specific original analog pedal and the sound of a newer pedal that claims to sound like the original isn’t all that surprising.

Proclaiming none of the presets do justice to any of the original pedals without comparing any of the presets to the original pedals might be a bit of an over-generalization.

If specific pedals and an amplifier are such integral parts of someone’s personal signature guitar tone, that player probably will use the pedals and amp. I know a lot of blues rock players who use old amps, classic pedals (including Klons that they bought for $100 when they first became available), and they have no use for anything else. They stopped shopping decades ago.

I use many different sounds, and declined to buy an original Klon, because I liked my Rat and Butler Tube Driver better. I stopped shopping in 2013, sold off a big pile of pedals, and like what the new Drive and OS can do.

Thanks to all involved in adding these new effects again!

DonPetersen · October 25, 2020 at 3:49 PM

Quote from lightbox

keep in mind that you refer to the distortion graph, not the frequency response graph I had posted earlier.

ah, my bad

lightbox · October 25, 2020 at 3:57 PM

Quote from paults

Proclaiming none of the presets do justice to any of the original pedals without comparing any of the presets to the original pedals might be a bit of an over-generalization.

I was referring to typical applications. I'll give you a real world example, ok?

Joe Bonamassa had a Klon in his rig that fed one of his Silver Jubilees. I know the exact settings of his Klon and also of his Silver Jubilee. Let's just start with the important part, the Klon. His settings were ... Gain: noon, Treble: 11:30 o'clock, Output: 11 o'clock

I can tell you for sure that (with the Silver Jubilee profiled according to his settings), it's absolutely impossible to match his sound without pushing the amp (aka increasing the Volume parameter of the Kemper Drive).

I don't think anybody on this planet would accuse Joe Bonamassa to use a Klon wrong. I would even go as far as saying ... if there ever has been a "sweet spot" on a Klon, Joe would likely use it. And it's really easy, even for a beginner, to hear the difference immediately. The added push into further compression adds a lot of sustain, makes the treble smoother and the overall sound just a beautiful singing lead tone.

paults · October 25, 2020 at 4:22 PM

If the same test was done with Christoph’s Klon, the comparison might be more direct. But, even then, it really isn’t possible to get the control knobs into the exact same position to do the comparisons.

I’m not disputing your results with your pedal. I just don’t think anything other than the original pedals could be used to compare the presets to their namesakes.

lightbox · October 25, 2020 at 4:37 PM

Quote from paults

it really isn’t possible to get the control knobs into the exact same position to do the comparisons.

Let's try to play the opposite game, ok?

You find me a well-known guitarist that uses the (original) Klon and show me if they have set their Output knob to not boost the amp. It actually doesn't matter if they play bluesy, crunchy tones or singing lead sounds with an already distorted amp.

To help you a little, this would mean the Output knob on their Klon would have to be set to 7:30 o'clock. Why? Because anything beyond 7:30 o'clock (or let's say 8 o'clock for pot taper tolerances) would definitely require the Kemper Drive's Volume increased for a perfect match. Simple as that.

dickjonesify · October 25, 2020 at 4:49 PM

Quote from lightbox

Distortion Graph:
[Blocked Image: https://www.kemper-amps.com/wbb_suite_3/index.php?attachment/12807-kemper-drive-marshall-silver-jubilee-centura-distortion-jpg/]

Goodness. That is remarkably similar. I call that a win for the Kemper team.

Maybe they’ll increase the output on the Kemper OD. The Full OC seems to get much louder (just from memory. Not in front of it right now).

JuLai · October 25, 2020 at 4:57 PM

Quote from lightbox

Red Lines:
Gain: 1 o'clock
Treble: noon
Output: 1 o'clock

Curious, what would be the unity volume setting for centura with such gain setting?

lightbox · October 25, 2020 at 5:04 PM

Quote from JuLai

Curious, what would be the unity volume setting for centura with such gain setting?

Not completely sure what you mean.

But if you mean where the Output knob of the Centura must be set to not add boost, it would be roughly 7:30 o'clock (but it obviously depends on the Gain setting as well). It's pretty much the same on the original Klon Centaur.

Jamesc · October 25, 2020 at 5:24 PM

I had a weird bug happen where I added the Kemper Drive to a locked slot in a performance, now that entire performance sounds like it's playing through a FRFR speaker. Does anyone know how to revert?

dickjonesify · October 25, 2020 at 5:27 PM

Quote from Jamesc

I had a weird bug happen where I added the Kemper Drive to a locked slot in a performance, now that entire performance sounds like it's playing through a FRFR speaker. Does anyone know how to revert?

I assume you didn’t save it that way.
Load a different performance and come back to that one, maybe.

Jamesc · October 25, 2020 at 5:53 PM

Quote from dickjonesify

I assume you didn’t save it that way.
Load a different performance and come back to that one, maybe.

I didn't save it at all but it's stuck like that. Even if I remove the stomp. I loaded in a preset from Rig Manager. It is still broken no matter what. I have to make a different performance with the same profiles to go back to where I was.

OneEng1 · October 25, 2020 at 6:05 PM

Quote from lightbox

One more run regarding my Ceriatone Centura, this time with another amp. First the details:
Marshall Silver Jubilee JCM 25/50 Model 2555
Lead Channel OFF
Presence: 10
Bass: 9
Middle: 0
Treble: 10
Output Master: 10
Input Gain: 7
Profiled with Tube Thomsen 4x12 cab with (british) Celestion V30s using Shure SM57 & Beyerdynamic M160
Resulting Profile:
Amp Gain: 3.0
The amp is setup to be pretty clean, just barely at the edge of breakup.
Now the Ceriatone Centura joins the game. I have it setup like this:
Red Lines:
Gain: 1 o'clock
Treble: noon
Output: 1 o'clock
Result: Quite crunchy sound, not as dynamic as the JCM 800 Bass Series I had used before, doesn't clean up as easy with lighter picking.
And finally we look at how to replicate that sound with the Kemper Drive:
Dark green lines:
Drive: 4.0
Tone: 5.0
Definition: 5.2
Slim Down: 0.0
Volume: 0.0
Light green lines:
Drive: 4.0
Tone: 5.0
Definition: 5.2
Slim Down: 0.0
Volume: 5.0
Frequency Response Graph:

Distortion Graph:

As you can easily see (and I can easily hear), again the Kemper Drive's Volume makes the difference, significantly. I don't know why the Volume isn't taken into account in any of the Kemper Drive presets. The Full OC presets make use of it. None of the Klon presets makes any sense (to me) and I'm baffled as to how this can be called "sweet spots". I don't have any of the other overdrive pedals emulated in presets, so I can't compare them. But I highly doubt they get close to what their real counterparts are typically used for!?
My personal bottomline:
Kemper Drive CAN be really great but the provided presets don't do their real counterparts justice, sorry.

Display More

Hi lighbox,

First off, let me say thank you for setting up and doing these measurements in such a scientific manner.

Your plots show ,to a fairly high degree of certainty, that the kemper drive model can very accurately duplicate the Klon. If there is a change in output needed to reach the exact curve (as seems apparent from your plots), couldn't you simply put a pure boost between the Kemper drive and the amp section to get that final little "push" you are looking for? I was also wondering if the "clean sense" would do the trick; however, I am guessing that the gain from this may be prior to the first effect chain.

Thoughts?

OneEng1 · October 25, 2020 at 6:06 PM

Quote from Jamesc

I didn't save it at all but it's stuck like that. Even if I remove the stomp. I loaded in a preset from Rig Manager. It is still broken no matter what. I have to make a different performance with the same profiles to go back to where I was.

Hi Jamesc,

Did you make a backup prior to loading the beta?

lightbox · October 25, 2020 at 6:48 PM

Quote from OneEng1

First off, let me say thank you for setting up and doing these measurements in such a scientific manner.

You're welcome ... and rest assured that it's interesting to me as well. So much easier to actually learn and understand (in this case the Kemper Drive and how it behaves).

Quote from OneEng1

If there is a change in output needed to reach the exact curve

I think the issue is slightly more complicated and probably beyond what I know and understand. Let me explain:

1. If I use my actual Centura via Loop Mono, an increase in pedal "Output" doesn't change the overall rig volume. It just compresses the amp harder and lowers treble and boosts bass. So far so good, I can understand that.

2. When I use a Pure Boost (after the Kemper Drive with volume at +5.0) it doesn't do a thing, even at +5.0. No additional compression, no volume boost, nothing.

3. These findings plus the fact that I don't want any additional amp compression tells me that I have to increase the volume in the amp block by 2.8dB if this volume diff is important to me. 2.8dB can be heard but when you disengage the Kemper Drive you don't necessarily want these extra 2.8dB.

Weird situation, to be honest. And I think it has to do with the internal gain staging of the Profiler (Kemper Drive vs. Loop Mono).

yeky83 · October 25, 2020 at 7:13 PM

Quote from lightbox

Frequency Response Graph:

Distortion Graph:

These graphs seem weird to me, could you describe them further?

What's the signal chain for your freq response graph? It looks to me smoothed beyond recognition, but maybe it's something I'm not expecting.

And what you call the distortion graph actually looks to me like the frequency response graph...? It has the basic response shape of a close mic'ed guitar cab, which is what one would expect with a drive pushing an amp profile. And add to that, REW doesn't allow for multiple distortion curves on one plot, so what are you showing here?

Care to share your REW measurement data set file (.mdat)?

lightbox · October 25, 2020 at 7:20 PM

Quote from yeky83

REW doesn't allow for multiple distortion curves on one plot, so what are you showing here?

The art of Photoshop's editing capabilities and layer modes (in this case "Lighter Color") That's why I initially didn't post these distortion graphs, I was just too lazy to fire up Photoshop to color/merge/overlay the separate graphs.

Regarding the data set files ... if you don't trust me, say it openly. Otherwise, why don't you do your own tests (and findings) if you know the tools?

paddyc · October 25, 2020 at 7:27 PM

What are we hoping to achieve here?

Nikos · October 25, 2020 at 7:43 PM

Quote from paddyc

What are we hoping to achieve here?

Why don't you enjoy it?

This discussion is the best proof that guitar players don't agree and will never ever agree on most simple things.

So..here we have folks who claim that the new drives sound nothing like the "originals" while some other folks completely ignore this and rave about how the graphs which should help this claim "show how close the KD comes to the klon"..?