Aaaaand another comparison/blind test

great stuff but I want something with a poweramp built into it. ? Bommel

They all sound good. Still Kemperfide here.

I think all 3 can sound quite close in many cases, with Fractal giving you more amp sims than Helix.

But 1) when it comes to multiple distortion stages both Helix and Fractal are above kemper by a big margin for me (even the unit not being designed with that in mind it'd a legitimate extension of what kemper can do, at least for me) and 2) even though the differences may be hard to hear, playing through the unit can give off quite a different impression about "what is best".

On this end, I've had cases where I cannot consistently tell the difference just listening between similar amps.. and yet playing through both.. I preferred one to the other by a meaningful margin. Much the same with Axe fx 3 vs kemper. I've had cases where profiling an amp the kemper mids just didn't feel right, especially annoying with some pickups perhaps making differences more perceptible to me. That, while Axe Fx didn't seem to suffer from the same stuff. It just felt better to play through, more like my amplifier.

I've also had cases where a real amp had something quite particular about it that was difficult to emulate with a non-fitting axe fx amp sim... but with kemper I was able to get closer, faster provided the real rig was already set up. There's something about how profiling works that always appealed to me, assuming I have the amps and space to get dirty. In the lack of this possibility/space, it'd be Axe Fx every time, no doubt.

So for me it largely depends on what situation, what device allows me to be creative in that manner. And of course the fact that the units can sound as close is telling, even though amp modelling itself has been pretty good for a relatively long time imo. It's tough to generalize about "what sounds or feels better" too, considering how many different tones the units can do, and how "feel" follows these changes at large.

Quote from Bommel

personally i think they are all great and all have weaknesses and strengths but they are so similar

soundwise that the most differences in the future will make features imo

what do you think

In the future, I believe the lines between "profiling" and "modelling" will be further blurred. And yes, I agree that there will be a big emphasis on "features", even though I am sure fractal's firmware will keep changing the amp tones measurably... even if only in terms of consistently telling the difference by "feel". Maybe the same happens with kemper's profiling at some point. It wouldn't be the first time, anyway, that there's such an update.

Quote from Dimi84

But 1) when it comes to multiple distortion stages both Helix and Fractal are above kemper by a big margin for me (even the unit not being designed with that in mind it'd a legitimate extension of what kemper can do, at least for me) and 2)

last night was quite the opposite again with my other guitarist and his Axe3 versus my Kemper. We are working on a project with heavy distortions and I was cutting through the mix more than him and it was heavy. I was using my JJ100 Profile and he was kept on going through his rig to find something to keep up. Last night was final night I think with the Axe. He said he was going today to pick up his Kemper. His tone is not bad but it gets lost with whatever amp sim he uses. It's weird. We thought it might be his guitar maybe because I am using a couple guitars with more mids and highs with ebony fretboards. So we switched and it still didn't help. The Axe is cool, was going to buy one prior to trying out the Kemper. I am glad I went with Kemper, so much easier to dial in and play for me.

Quote from BB2019

last night was quite the opposite again with my other guitarist and his Axe3 versus my Kemper. We are working on a project with heavy distortions and I was cutting through the mix more than him and it was heavy. I was using my JJ100 Profile and he was kept on going through his rig to find something to keep up. Last night was final night I think with the Axe. He said he was going today to pick up his Kemper. His tone is not bad but it gets lost with whatever amp sim he uses. It's weird. We thought it might be his guitar maybe because I am using a couple guitars with more mids and highs with ebony fretboards. So we switched and it still didn't help. The Axe is cool, was going to buy one prior to trying out the Kemper. I am glad I went with Kemper, so much easier to dial in and play for me.

Your profile includes multiple distorting stages, as in preamp + poweramp gain together? Asking due to the sentence quoted.

I am using a DI profile/ powered Kemper though my cab. When I am recording, I use a merged profile with a favorite cab sim.

Quote from BB2019

I am using a DI profile though my cab. When I am recording, I use a merged profile with a favorite cab sim.

Ok, what I mean by "multiple distorting stages" is situations where you profile an amp with preamp and power amp distortion at the same time. Kemper isn't really designed to do that/often gets confused and you get a very strong "cocked wah" focus. I have found some cases in which it did work surprisingly well, perhaps due to differences in how the amps worked.

But yea, Helix and Axe fx modelling the components separately still has brought better results most of the time. Of course, that's not important to everybody either. Many tones people assume use distorting preamp + power amp.. but in reality, do not. Heck, plenty of people, when actually faced with this kind of combination really dislike the tone, even if they assume that's how a tone they like is made... which often isn't true. So this is not as important for every user (and that's perfectly fine).

That aside, if you were using your direct profile through guitar cab, how was your friend amplifying the axe fx?

Quote from Dimi84

Ok, what I mean by "multiple distorting stages" is situations where you profile an amp with preamp and power amp distortion at the same time. Kemper isn't really designed to do that/often gets confused and you get a very strong "cocked wah" focus. I have found some cases in which it did work surprisingly well, perhaps due to differences in how the amps worked.

That aside, if you were using your direct profile through guitar cab, how was your friend amplifying the axe fx?

I don't know what about this cocked wah tone. My profile doesn't have that characteristic at all. Many the DI profiles I have been using are fantastic. There is some that are dogs of course.

What are you running through? Whats your setup? What profiles are you running?

He's running through a Fryette power amp with mesa 412.

Quote from BB2019

I don't know what about this cocked wah tone. My profile doesn't have that characteristic at all. Many the DI profiles I have been using are fantastic. There is some that are dogs of course.

What are you running through? Whats your setup?

He's running through a Fryette power amp with mesa 412.

I am referring to profiling amps with dual distorting stages and direct comparisons to the profiled amp through the same monitoring. Vast majority of profiles are not made in this manner. So I would not expect them to illustrate such a behavior, on this level. This "multiple distorting stage" thingy is a limitation mentioned in the manual of the unit.

Quote from Dimi84

I am referring to profiling amps with dual distorting stages and direct comparisons to the profiled amp through the same monitoring. Vast majority of profiles are not made in this manner. So I would not expect them to illustrate such a behavior, on this level. This "multiple distorting stage" thingy is a limitation mentioned in the manual of the unit.

Well I am not trying to dissect the manual, I know what my ears say. Lol. If there is a limitation of tone, then I haven't found it. I have found some profiles that are not up to par. I am not one to dissect like I said, I play and look and judge the unit I use or try based on ears. I know when we went back to back with the real JJ, none of us could tell which was which.

What profiles are you using that are limiting in tone for you? What is your setup? Are you a tinkerer or a player? Has your limitations been in a full band mix?

missing is my Line 6 HX Effects but this is my setup. 412 has V30's and Creamback 75's. I guess being a novice to lingo and the interworkings of profiles works in my favor. I don't over think it. I just play.

Quote from BB2019

Well I am not trying to dissect the manual, I know what my ears say. Lol. If there is a limitation of tone, then I haven't found it. I have found some profiles that are not up to par. I am not one to dissect like I said, I play and look and judge the unit I use or try based on ears.

What profiles are you using that are limiting in tone for you? What is your setup? Are you a tinkerer or a player? Has your limitations been in a full band mix?

Judging things according to one's ears is cool -- but again, I am talking about multiple distorting stages. In the scenario that you have not made such profiles, it's not surprising if you haven't faced the issue at hand. Or have you made such profiles and talking about these?

I use my profiles, for the most part. Comparisons are made with same monitoring as the real amps in order to narrow down things to profiling accuracy and get the best out of that aspect of things. I am a player, sure. But I don't view that as against tinkering per se -- especially not considering that's how profiles are typically made, me being a kemper user as well.

Quote from Dimi84

Judging things according to one's ears is cool -- but again, I am talking about multiple distorting stages. In the scenario that you have not made such profiles, it's not surprising if you haven't faced the issue at hand. Or have you made such profiles and talking about these?

I use my profiles, for the most part. Comparisons are made with same monitoring as the real amps in order to narrow down things to profiling accuracy and get the best out of that aspect of things. I am a player, sure. But I don't view that as against tinkering per se -- especially not considering that's how profiles are typically made, me being a kemper user as well.

Like I said, we have gone back to back with the real JJ with a few guitar players at our rehearsal spot. All of us couldn't tell what was what.

Your profiles on the rig exchange? Would like to try and hear what you mean.

Quote from BB2019

Like I said, we have gone back to back with the real JJ with a few guitar players at our rehearsal spot. All of us couldn't tell what was what.

Your profiles on the rig exchange? Would like to try and hear what you mean.

It can be your source/amp tone did not include multiple distorting stages, preamp and power amp distortion.

That's likely the case with this particular amp unless you really really gunned the volume. In case not, the above issue would be much less likely to apply, and chances are there wouldn't be a super emphasized cocked wah tone to hear (even though a few amps, settings can cause something similar even without premap plus power amp distortion).

I am referring to multiple distorting stages instead.

I do have profiles on rig exchange, but not ones like these, considering they don't sound or feel right to me/are not representative of the source tone compared to profiling working at its best, not being confused due to such a set up.

Quote from BB2019

We are working on a project with heavy distortions and I was cutting through the mix more than him and it was heavy.

Of course it depends how the Axe patch was set up, just as with variables in profiles. I've gone through multiple profiles for live use because I wasn't "cutting the mix" next to my other guitarist's Orange AD140 & 4x12. It's still something I fight with.

Quote from MementoMori

Of course it depends how the Axe patch was set up, just as with variables in profiles. I've gone through multiple profiles for live use because I wasn't "cutting the mix" next to my other guitarist's Orange AD140 & 4x12. It's still something I fight with.

What profiles were you using? When we went back to back with the amp source and the profiles it was on par. Do you have any live vids for reference of you playing out. Would love to hear them..

Dimi84 when we DI'd the JJ we did the preamp stage we thought knowing we would be using cabs.

What type of amp profiles have you done? I have a few that I have also been using just the DI that are low gain to mid gain from people like TopJimi and Deadlight Studios that kill with cabs. Our volumes are loud but not crushing.

Quote from BB2019

Dimi84 when we DI'd the JJ we did the preamp stage we thought knowing we would be using cabs.

What type of amp profiles have you done? I have a few that I have also been using just the DI that are low gain to mid gain.

I've done premap only profiles, profiles of preamp plus power amp (so no miced up cab in the sound other than cab acting as load), and studio ones.

The majority of the time I've used direct ones with IRs. But some times people asked for studio ones more, and then got into that more at a given point. Generally prefer direct profiles for my own uses (especially since Kemper introduced that as an official feature).

Quote from Dimi84

I've done premap only profiles, profiles of preamp plus power amp (so no miced up cab in the sound other than cab acting as load), and studio ones.

The majority of the time I've used direct ones with IRs. But some times people asked for studio ones more, and then got into that more at a given point. Generally prefer direct profiles for my own uses (especially since Kemper introduced that as an official feature).

Oh cool. Where do you offer your profiles? Would like to buy a couple.