Studio Monitors Issue and FRFR Advice

  • Hi Everyone,

    I bought my Kemper Unpowered Toaster a month ago and I am really happy with my purchase! I already like it a lot more than my Orange Rockerverb 50 MKiii and may even sell that and a bunch of my pedals.

    I have some Yamaha HS5 Monitors and KRK KNS-6400 headphones.

    All of my profiles sound perfect through the headphones. I'm less satisfied with the sound from my HS5s. The profiles don't sound as distinct as they do through the headphones. I also tried using the power amp of my Rockerverb through my Orange Cab and wasn't thrilled with the sound either.

    I would now like to:

    1) Find a way to make the HS5s sound better.

    2) Buy a FRFR Active Cabinet for mostly bedroom and occasional rehearsal / small show use.


    For 1) I would really appreciate any suggestions on how to improve the sound. I have played around with placement and high trim / room control settings.

    Regarding 2) I am considering either the Yamaha DXR8 or 10, the Atomic CLR Wedge or the Friedman ASM 12. Which would you recommend? Am I likely to encounter similar issues to the Yamaha HS5? Are these overkill for mostly home use with the option to play live very occasionally?!

    Thanks!

    Edited 2 times, last by pedalo (December 2, 2017 at 6:35 PM).

  • Thanks for the link - that is really useful.

    I have decided to try and improve the sound of the monitors so I don't need to spend any more money. I have some questions as I am a little confused after doing some research and would really appreciate some help.

    1) I also own a Focusrite Forte. What are the main differences between going direct from Main Outputs of the Kemper to the Monitors versus going to the Monitors via the Forte?

    2) When I go from Monitor Out on the Kemper to one of the Instrument cables on the Forte, the sound only comes out of one Monitor, not both, despite both Monitors being connected. How can I get it to come out of both using only one Instrument cable?

    3) When I use each main output from the Kemper to each instrument cable on the Forte I get sound through both. Is this a Stereo set up?

    Thanks!

  • Hi Pedalo,

    i've got a set up not too different from yours - Kemper Powered Toaster, Yamaha HS8 monitors, akg K240 headphones, focusrite scarlett interface. Plus I have a rockerverb 100 mkIII :) and pedal board that I thought of selling after getting the kemper. (more on that later)

    Couple quick thoughts:

    - Sound perception is always subjective but good quality profiles to me pretty much always sound good or great through the headphones, even at relatively low volume. I believe this is because the phones are almost right up against your ear, so you "feel" the tone and low end push even when volumes are quite low

    - at similarly low volumes on my HS8 monitors, the sound is not so satisfying, but I have gotten used to it over time and understand why it doesn't feel as good as the headphones. BUT when I pump up the volume when going through the monitors (not quite rattling the windows but to where you can feel the thump in your body a little), I am satisfied with the sound. So question how loud have your pushed things going through our HS5s? being as theses are 5inch woofers versus the 8inch in my set, you probably won't get the kind of thump you are used to, especially not coming from being a rockerverb player (hee hee, I know the feeling, the rockerverb mkIII is an absolute beast and I guess you have maybe a 2x12 or even a 4x12 cab you run that baby through? If so, no way your HS5 can compete with that feeling. but headphone can)

    - Check if you have the Space param set to headphones only (Output menu page 5, the "Space>HeadphOnly" box should be unchecked if you want the space param to also apply to the main outs, not just headphones). Because that can colour your perception and make the phones experience feel more "deep" versus the monitors (main outs) experience. So do check that.

    Hope it helps!

    PS: I also thought of selling my rockerverb at first, but after more thought, I'd say, hey if you can afford to keep yours, don't rush to sell it. Great as the kemper is (and I LOVE mine to bits), the rockerverb MK3 is one incredible amp and the build quality is so good, it will last a lifetime. It's capable of many many great tones. It's OK to love the kemper and still love your tube orange (I know you said you didn't feel as satisfied with the orange after getting the kemper but it could be some honeymoon effect so give the orange more time to do it's thing).

  • Thanks so much for the advice. That is so helpful, especially as you have similar impeccable taste in gear!!!

    I was in the store the other day looking at the yamaha dxr10 and wondering whether or not to take it home. I decided to give the monitors another try because I could really do without more gear!

    I started running the kemper through the forte and turned it up louder like you said and definitely noticed and improvement. I also elevated the monitors to improve the positioning and did some comparison between the headphones and there was much less difference. The difference was as you say to do with the extra "oomph" you get in the headphones. I can always use my headphones if I need that though and I will definitely use headphones a lot when playing late.

    I'm much happier with the monitors now and won't bother buying an frfr. Also you are right about the rockerverb. It is nice to have the best of both worlds and i don't need to sell it at all. I would resent selling it too because it would only get about half the price I paid for it. The clean and dirty channels are both brilliant at all volumes and I can run a purely analogy set up with the pedals I have through it. Also I can use that live instead of the kemper. I could use it live with no pedals and get a great sound.

    My focus now is on improving the monitors. There is a lot to learn still.

  • Thanks so much for the advice. That is so helpful, especially as you have similar impeccable taste in gear!!!

    I was in the store the other day looking at the yamaha dxr10 and wondering whether or not to take it home. I decided to give the monitors another try because I could really do without more gear!

    I started running the kemper through the forte and turned it up louder like you said and definitely noticed an improvement. I also elevated the monitors to improve the positioning and did some comparison between the headphones and there was much less difference. The difference was as you say to do with the extra "oomph" you get in the headphones. I can always use my headphones if I need that though and I will definitely use headphones a lot when playing late.

    I'm much happier with the monitors now and won't bother buying an frfr. Also you are right about the rockerverb. It is nice to have the best of both worlds and i don't need to sell it at all. I would resent selling it too because it would only get about half the price I paid for it. The clean and dirty channels are both brilliant at all volumes and I can run a purely analog set up with the pedals I have through it. Also I can use that live instead of the kemper. I could use it live with no pedals and get a great sound.

    My focus now is on improving the monitors. There is a lot to learn still.

    Edited once, last by pedalo (December 3, 2017 at 1:05 AM).

  • Hi there again! glad you are making progress and I definitely know the feeling of really don't need to have more gear ;) (but it would still be nice to have.... hee hee).

    I don't think you mentioned whether you were running your headphones direct out from the kemper phone out or from your focusrite phones out - that would make a difference to when comparing to monitors running out from the focusrite. I do find the focusrite adds some colouration (mine does, not much but it does add some)

    Other thing I didn't say earlier is now I run the kemper into a small 4 channel mackie mixer and then monitors are running off that. So I don't run into the focusrite at all for this part of the chain. I did initially go into the focusrite and use that as a mixer but wasn't too happy with the result. The mackie (it's a 402 VLZ4) is a pretty low cost mixer and I find it doesn't colour the sound at all (having run A/B tests going direct from Kemper to monitors or headphones and going through the mixer first to monitor or phones).

    So basically I don't have the focusrite as part of the chain for what I hear from the monitors. Instead I go into the focusrite via S/PDIF and the focusrite into my Mac for recording. Having the mixer also allows me to run other stuff in like external mp3 to jam along to without relying on my PC or the focusrite. Just a lot of flexibility that way.

  • At the moment I am using the headphones directly from the Kemper. Interesting - I will try the space effect on the monitors.

    What would you recommend setting the High cut to?

    Where is the mid boost on the hs5?

    I am really confused about all of the different db settings in the chain. The kemper allows me to set the db for the main out, the forte allows me to set the db and my monitors have a db setting! Is there a best practice for where the db should be applied and what it should be set to at each point (e.g. set forte and hs5 to 0db and use kemper as Master)

    Edited once, last by pedalo (December 3, 2017 at 11:19 AM).

  • I have to say that when I was auditioning for new monitors a short while ago I was persuaded to spend some time listening to a number of Yamaha monitors, I really did not like them and found them weak in the midrange and rather unflattering to guitars. I ended up with a pair of Adam A7x's and a Sub 8.and have been very happy with how the Guitar sounds. The A7X has a really smooth top end thanks to the rather wonderful ribbon tweeter. They also present a very detailed midrange. However I did find that on their own I wanted a little more depth of bass - hence the Sub 8. To be honest I did not like the sound of my guitar on the Yamaha's. Maybe you need to go out with some reference tracks and listen to a few monitors to see which ones suit you.

  • Thanks for the tips. I think I will stick at it with the yamahas for now.

    I could still do with some advice on where is best to manage the db (from the kemper, forte or yamaha hs5 volume controls).

    Also is it best to use the main outs to the two forte instrument cables?

    Thanks

  • Yamaha's philosophy with monitors is accuracy, with that not everything sounds good and if you get it to sound good then you have more assurance that it will sound good on most other devices. Other monitors that have sweeteners added and extra bass, as some do, aren't accurate and even though they sound good , they can sound off on other media devices, so it's a balancing act to decide which ones are better for one's purposes.

    Actually what I am trying to say is that the Yamaha speakers are not very accurate. They are not detailed enough in the midrange and are a bit too bland. They did not reveal much about the mixes I fed through them. The A7X's are much more revealing of poor source material. They really have improved the quality and transfer-ability of my mixes onto other systems. I you have heard the original Yamaha NS10's they sounded horrible - but if you could get your track to sound good on them it would sound good on anything. However they are not a pleasant monitor to listen to.

  • It won't surprise me if the Adams; are better as they're at least double the price of the yamaha so the components are hopefully better. Regarding the midrange , I'm not sure how true that is but if you with the mid EQ +2 the HS50 become close to the NS10s. For mixing however, room treatment can't be overlooked.
    Getting back the the Yamaha, I listen to some all time popular records and some sound terrible while others sound really good, so they seem accurate enough as they don't make everything sound great.

  • I could still do with some advice on where is best to manage the db (from the kemper, forte or yamaha hs5 volume controls).

    Also is it best to use the main outs to the two forte instrument cables?


    That was how I was doing it previously when I went from Kemper (both main outs) to Focusrite Scarlett (6i6) - went into the 2 instrument inputs. Set the level on the scarlett to just below where it would clip.

    Volume control to monitors was then managed from within the focusrite control software (on PC or Mac, mac in my case) which is basically like a software based mixer.

    Things I didn't like with this set up:

    1) if you then turn up the master volume on the kemper (assuming you have kept master linked to main outs), this drives a stronger signal to the focusrite and makes it clip unless you back gain down on the focusrite. but then you might have the signal too low for other profiles and there's still the volume control in the software based mixer to balance. So too many volume control variables I found.

    2) Plus I wanted an aux in for mp3 (usually coming from a smartphone or tablet) - yes you can use the alt input and return input on the kemper as an aux in (and I did try that too), but then you need to manage the volume level via the output menu for the aux in (if left linked to master volume, too hard to manage given master is also controlling output of the main guitar signal).

    Solution for my case was "simple" (but yes, did require 1 more piece of gear but relatively low cost and overall a great investment for me) - a small 4 channel mackie mixer. So signal chain is now:

    Kemper Main outs
    ->
    Mixer input 1 and input 2, gain level set at unity, eqs set flat (just using 2 standard instrument cables, no noise issues)
    ->
    Mixer main outs L and R to monitors. Mixer main outs level set to unity. Monitor volume I leave at +4db, the "default" mid knob position.
    Mixer headphone out also set to "unity" (which is the midway point on my mixer).

    So now just one place to control volume that is heard through the monitors, which is the kemper master volume (assuming it's kept linked to main outs).

    External mp3 goes into channel 3 and 4 on the mixer (so I retain stereo). My mixer (and most mixers probably would have too) also has an additional stereo out, which could be what feeds into the focusrite interface for recording.

    In my case, I use S/PDIF out from the kemper and the scarlett has SPDIF in. Since your forte doesn't have S/PDIF, if you do get a mixer with an additional stereo out (on top of it's main outs) then you would all set that way too. Alternative would be to use monitor out or direct out from the kemper to your interface if you did get a mixer or have one that doesn't have additional outputs on top of main outs.

    Importantly for me, I have found with this set up, there is no gain boost or loss introduced by the mixer (nor the focusrite interface since it's not part of the chain), nor tone colouration. It sounds exactly like what I would get going from the kemper direct to monitors or the kemper direct headphone out. So I don't have to second guess myself whether a profile I am trying out really sounds that way or is something in my signal chain changing the levels or colouring the tone.

    Finally, I also want to run my DAW monitoring via the yammy monitors of course, which is simple with the mixer - output from PC/Mac goes into aux in on the mixer, which has it's own level/volume control. Also means I can listen to music using the yammies while working.

    Sorry for long story, I know it doesn't directly map to your situation (of going direct to the forte interface) - just sharing what has worked well for me as I have tried the direct to interface method like you for a while, and just found if too cumbersome to get the manage the levels for everyday playing/practice/recording.

  • It won't surprise me if the Adams; are better as they're at least double the price of the yamaha so the components are hopefully better.

    I was thinking the same thing. Doesn't seem a fair comparison for this class of yamaha monitors to go up against the adams. I'm happy with my HS8s although indeed a pair of adams sure would be nice to have... :)


  • Sorry for long story, I know it doesn't directly map to your situation (of going direct to the forte interface) - just sharing what has worked well for me as I have tried the direct to interface method like you for a while, and just found if too cumbersome to get the manage the levels for everyday playing/practice/recording.

    Hey thanks so much for this advice!

    I have only just come back to this thread and my Kemper after a busy couple of months.

    I got a new desk in that time and my Kemper now sounds amazing through the monitors. I can't believe the difference.

    I also ordered the remote in November and finally used it for the first time this week. It seems really nice too but I have barely even worked out how to use my Kemper nevermind the remote.

    I have a Boomerang Looper already anyway so didn't buy it for looping but I was very unimpressed with that feature until I realised I could lower the loop play back :D

    So everything is now in place for me to enjoy the purchase (and I am relieved no new hardware was announced at NAMM!). So far, I haven't worked out even basics like saving effects to rigs or using perform mode because I spend all my time cycling between the hundreds of incredible rigs.

    It is a blessing and a curse! I need to establish some rules for limiting the number of rigs I have at any one time. There are so many slightly different rigs in a pack like CSP 1,2,3 etc. I like them all - how am I supposed to choose one or two to stick with and customise?!